Well Friends,
The past week or so has been filled with a variety of pleasant and interesting rides, ending with a little drama on the AZ BDR section east of Young AZ.
The Canadian Snowbirds (Frostbacks?) have returned for the bulk of the winter, with one of them unfortunately banned from riding by a doctor for the season. We hope Chuck makes a complete recovery and is back on two wheels for next winter.
We did a couple of nice rides on the familiar roads out and around Florence, Oracle, Dudleyville, Kearny, Agua Caliente, Arlington, and Gila Bend.
Roads were in nice condition with relatively recent grading. It has not rained here in a couple of month, so there was no shortage of dust available.
First ride was a BMW GS, a very clean Africa Twin solo, and of course, Black Betty (that sweet girl.) Weather was near perfect with fine companions.
A mix of the first group and a couple more friends got out around Agua Caliente for a nice rip around the desert. Bikes added included another GSA, and a very pretty new Aprilia Toureg 660. Africa Twin friend did not join this romp.
Ooohhh, new bike!
There wasn't anything particularly remarkable about these rides, other than the shear joy of being out on bikes in really nice weather and good scenery... I think Greg's expression captures the adventures quite well:
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Now, yesterday's ride was of a slightly different nature...
Both Greg and Claude were able to get a day off and were willing to push the limits a little bit on terrain complexity, so they allowed me to instigate a ride up the AZ Backroad Discovery Route (BDR), south to north on the east side of Young.
I had done most of this ride a while back, but from the north, and in the dark, so I thought it might be fun to see the spectacular scenery and test our abilities a little.
The weather started out a little chilly, and then sort of stayed that way as we climbed up to about 6000 ft (~2000M) elevation. Temps were mostly 40's to 50's F during the day.
Claude selected his R1200 GSA and Greg picked his KTM790 as their weapons of choice. Black Betty (that bad bitch) followed the lads rather meekly, as we climbed up past Globe, the 188 to the 288, and then grabbed Cherry Creek Rd. to catch the BDR route: We were on the mostly orange line.
I loaded in 10 pins on the route into Google Maps, downloaded the offline map of the area, and put it in the nav. Greg, smart guy that he is, brought a paper version of the BDR map, just in case. We used both heavily, at a few intersections, with interesting results. I think we managed to find the "expert level" sections, without fail, or trying.
As we gained altitude, the sky became crystal clear and the road started to become a little more interesting with a few embedded rocks and a couple of water crossings:
Cherry Creek was flowing a little...
As we continued to gain elevation and work around rocks, breaks became a little more frequent!
The GSA became a little sleepy on the way up a fairly long and steep rock garden; Claude is meditating before performing the waking ritual. This was the only ooopssiee of the day; I really don't know how he piloted that enormous bike through some of the crazy stuff we encountered there and farther down the road. Mad skills and no fear!
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Shade aplenty to stop and hydrate...
Road kept getting more interesting, narrower and soon, shadier as we climbed from the oaks into the pines.
Claude kindly doing gate duty as we crossed into ranches... wonder where all that dust on my lens came from!
Yeah, there is a road there, somewhere...
For some reason or another, I never seem to stop and capture the really entertaining rocks and such...
We made it through all of the challenging stuff, rocks, ledges, ruts, etc. It was not as tough as the infamous Crown King adventure with @Prmurat, a few weeks ago, but I think the cumulative beatings finally caught up to Black Betty (that bad bitch.)
We all three blew by a caravan of Jeeps that were making some portion of the trek, as it started to widen out into more of what one might call a dirt road. After stirring up sufficient dust, we stopped to compare thoughts on the previous 30 miles or so that had occupied the better part of several hours.
We all noticed that BBTBB was leaning in considerably... upon further inspection, it became obvious that the rear A arm had let go, once again.
I limped it a little ways down the now relatively easy road, but the load shift took out the bolts that hold the upper rear mount to the seat rail and then the front A arm let go as well.
We decided that there was no trail repair going to happen for this situation, so discussed options.
The best thing we could come up with was parking her off road in a "camping" mode, and me riding bitch on the luggage plate of Claude's GSA, back to civilization, then returning with Claude's truck and trailer in the morning for an off-road recovery. Did I mention btw, that Claude is a saint?
It had cooled off to 44F (7 C) by the time we made up our minds on how to proceed. It was time to put a few layers back on after the prior workout:
Well, she was still there in the morning, unmolested.
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Started right up and rode her onto the trailer.
Jacked her up in the center, shoved some 4x4 chunks under the A arms to take some load off the remaining top mount, then applied something less than a million rachet straps to all corners, in hopes that she would sit still for 18 miles or so of heavy duty washboards.
There were quite a few stops to check straps on the washboards, with a few adjustments and additions, but all in all, she rode the trailer of shame with aplomb.
Where bolts used to hold the top rear mount to the seat rail... I have a hunch extraction of the remaining pieces will be interesting, no doubt.
Home again, home again...
Wasn't quite in the mood to start cleaning and disassembly, yet, but at least secure and back home.
So I'm sure there are several that will say I never learn, but let's review what I may have learned or confirmed...
1. I have some really great riding buddies that I hang out with. Not only did Claude go above and beyond, but Greg offered as well, and even another rider who wasn't on the ride offered trailer services and help (thanks @Prmurat !!!) I am a very fortunate person.
2. Jon @SIDECARUSA">@SIDECARUSA is a stand up dude. I sent him a few pictures of what happened, at about 10 pm on a Saturday night, and he is shipping out some newly redesigned A arms on Monday. I think our friends at TSC are really trying to do things right.
3. Regardless of the unfortunate opportunity to rebuild BBTBB stronger, better, and faster, I had an outstandingly good time. I ordered this rig to do exactly this sort of ride. It has failed a few times under what I am starting to understand is more harsh use than most people imagine an adventure sidecar rig to withstand. With each iteration on repair, redisign, bracing, gussetting, it fails less and goes on more interesting adventures.
4. I am seeing some limits on a "heavy" rig that probably isn't as strong as I wish it was. It is giving me more ideas of what the "next" rig might look like, with a lighter, stronger frame, subframe and swingarm. I am pretty sure that I am entering rare territory, from a marketing perspective, but there are lessons to be learned from the people that have built rigs that survive; i.e. our Australian friends, Baja Racers, and assorted people here that know materials science, welding, fabrication, etc. I'm not ready to start a new build, but I am accumulating ideas!
What a wild weekend! Stay tuned for the rebirth of Black Betty (that sweet girl.)
what a great adventure, makes me think back to my MANY years of trail riding growing up, boy how I miss making a day on the trails.
Bummed to see Black Betty (that sweet girl) is sidelined. Very cool of Texas Sidecars to jump in to help. 👍
As much as I don't want to see your rig break, ever... the whole process has been educational. One thing for sure though, much better the sidecar & sidecar sub-frame is what breaks, over the bike frame/rear subframe.
Hold my keyboard and watch this! 🙃
Well Friends,
Spent the afternoon cleaning, disassembling and inspecting...
She got a bath, to at least knock enough dirt off to see what was going on:
Got the bike leaned back to vertical to start out the process...
Ran tilt to min, max, then marked and placed it at middle of range of adjustment. Will use that as the starting point for re-attaching the car to the bike.
Got the hack frame sitting on 4x4's, relatively level, and started busting clamps loose.:
Front A arm: looks like the cracks had been there a while, and propagated to the breaking point suddenly.
Similar story on the rear A arm:
The attach points for both top mounts to the hack frame had also wallowed a bit, and were a little loose.
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Will need to face the tube surface that the bolt goes through to create a flat surface to crank it together and mate with:
Bolts through hack top frame rail could stand to to be a little longer; only engages 5 to 6 threads.
Not sure a split lock washer is the best solution, here.
L shaped bracket (angle iron) is the top mount that I have always known needed to be better. The two M8 bolts that thread into the aluminum seat rail frame extension, into blind holes, both snapped off, one below flush, and allowed the top rear mount to float free.
I think the top rear mount single shear angle iron L bracket needs to turn into a C shape double shear mount that wraps around the seat rail, with bolts passing through instead of blind. I would also like to lengthen it to have it catch the M12 bolt that secures the aluminum seat rail to the steel frame. Add a strap/clamp from it to the steel rod that has a tab bolted under the back side of the M12, and it might be strong enough. (ok at least a hell of a lot stronger.)
Longer shot of the rear, top strut mount, before strut removal:
L bracket held in position...
View from above, L bracket held to seat rail:
Where I decided to stop for the evening:
Some good postmortem.
We had discussed changing the L bracket up a long while back. Just to reiterate my thoughts; The aluminum subframe will be the next to fail if you through-bolt it with a "C" bracket. So a re-think in that regard would be smart.
A few possibilities for your consideration (because never bring a problem without a potential systemic solution), although I'm sure you can come up with something even better. numbered in order of least to more intrusive.
1). Clamp completely around the the square subframe tube, and use the bolt locations strictly for locators, and to help hold things together loosely while assembling the "clamping bracket".
2). Take the Honda seat subframe to a competent welder, have them weld a threaded sleeve through the holes flush with the square tubing, such that the section is solid. Then fish plate both sides (stitch weld) all the way across the area to reinforce it with serrated plated. Instead of using bolts, use threading studs (the type you install with a hex head wrench). You would need to slide the serrated steel "C" bracket into place over the serrated fish plate on the Honda seat subframe, thread the stud through the bracket and subframe, and then lock washers/nuts. Now you could use a C bracket if you want to. Reinforce the area around the mounting holes of the bracket with thick fender washers welded in place to distribute the load.
3). Redesign the DMC (of WA, not Texas) subframe on the bike to include a vertical component to assist in load support for the rear attachment. Then plate the triangulated part of the Honda seat subframe assembly with a bracket that attaches the strut to the plate instead of directly to the seat subframe. Probably the smartest way as the load can be triangulated to multiple parts of the bike.
Side note: Have you considered engineering in a bit of "give" between the bike and sidecar, so that the shock loads aren't absorbed in the welded joints? Something like Johnny Joints, or even polyurethane body bushings would help. Judicious and careful application in the right spots could make a world of difference not only in durability, but felt shock loads through the bars and feet. Done right there would be no noticeable "loose" handing.
In any case, as always I wish you the best of success in your endeavors Sir! 🍻
Hold my keyboard and watch this! 🙃
I am afraid............afraid that I must concur with my colleague from the great state of Utah, and agree that his Side Note posted above seems to be the best solution for your current state of affairs.
Reality, there is nothing that we mere mortals can say that Dane (Ben Franklin) has not already thought of, as...knowing him...he is a very intelligent hominid, only falling short of genius in that he chose the former DMC to steal such a large sum of money from him, for such a POS sidecar rig that he received.
But, I digress. 
Dane, you know all the facts of life about your AT super heavy duty extreme off-road sidecar rig.
Suggestions: There was just recently a 2005 Suzuki V-Strom 650 w/aluminum cargo box sidecar for sale in Corvallis, Oregon, that would have been a super off-road sidecar rig for your needs, but as of this morning it is gone/sold.
You could ride your 2 wheeled Yamaha Virago (the baby version) whilst Chuckles in Eugene builds you an entirely new subframe, new sidecar frame, new mounts, etc.....then go break all that new stuff too.
You could continue breaking all the stuff that you continue to rebuild, to the point that it causes you to have a very bad accident on a trail, all alone, and 131 miles from any help, so that the wolves start nibbling at you, the ants start invading your wounds, the owls keep you up all night, and finally a lone skunk strolls by and blasts their scent directly in your face...and only then to you decide.....I will have Chuckles in Eugene build me a new rig.
But, I digress. 
If for nothing else, Dane, you bring the ADVENTURE to this sidecar forum, with a little Abbott & Costello meets Laurel & Hardy thrown in.
Two Million Mile Rider...All 7 Continents
Exploring the World in Comfort
. Miles has advanced degrees from the University of Worst Case, with emphasis in the What Could POSSIBLY Go Wrong Center For Excellence!@scott-h , yep, that top rear mount has been a bother for a while. If the A arms had not failed, it may have been fine, but I feel a need to make it more robust.
Here is a picture reminder of what the actual seat rail part looks like:
It is the tail shown as part #25, above. I think it is aluminum injection molded, if I know Honda tech. The square section bars are solid.
The passenger peg mounting brackets bolt to the bottom rail of the seat tail piece with M8 bolts threading into bosses that have flat machined mating surfaces.
Right side passenger footpeg bracket was removed and the L shaped top mount in question was bolted on in it's place, using the same bolts.
The bolts were a little short, and I think in a couple of episodes back, broke off once and vibrated out once.
I had since replaced them with M8 grade 10.9 flange bolts that were long enough to just not quite bottom into the blind holes. I had also slotted the L bracket to allow it to be pushed tight against the vertical face of the rail, before bolting it tight from the bottom.
The above held well, until the A arms failed completely, then 100 % of the load of the left rear corner transferred rather abruptly to the top rear strut mount. That is when the leverage allowed it to pop the heads off the bolts. (my opinion, at least.)
Ok, so going forward:
New A arms are on their way. Heavier duty, for sure (Thanks Jonny and TSC!!!)
I think I will run a brace, fabricated from remanents of the ghost of A arms past, from the top of the new A arms to the top sidecar frame tube. This will form a triangle that spreads the load off of the clamps that attach to the lower sidecar frame tube.
Doing this will end the "infinite" angle adjustability of the clamped A arm, but I think I can dial it in, trim to fit, and leave it in place. I have never felt impelled to change the A arm angle, in relation to the frame tube, other than after a failure. The threaded end of the A arm will still allow toe in adjustment.
So if we imagine infinitely strong A arms that cannot pivot up and down after fitment, but do pivot vertically on Heim joints attached in double shear to the somewhat stronger subframe, then the top mounts will be the next likely source of angst.
I think working out the C clamp around the seat rail square section casting is next. The two 8 mm bolts will likely just be used for positioning, as you suggest.
I share your concerns about punching through the rail, and weakening it. I was also considering making the bolts M10, but worried more about larger holes further weakening the assembly.
I do not have this thoroughly worked out in my mind, yet, but there are a couple of aerospace mechanical engineers taking a look at it with offers of CNC assistance that will likely come up with something pretty sweet. Same team that came up with the LL pivot bearing carriers.
I think getting this mount hooked into the M12 bolt in the steel frame that attaches the lowest forward point of the seat rail would be a good start, though. That bolt holds the seat rail in double shear to the steel bike frame.
For the top front mount, I have never been fond of the cantilever tube sticking out. It has always had some flex that transfers a twisting force to the lower A arm mounts when it flexes.
Couple of thoughts come to mind.
The top sidecar frame tube has a hole plumbed for a 3rd top mount. (tube welded in like the front and rear top strut mounts attach to.)
There is a reasonably convenient place on the bike frame to construct a bolt-on mounting point that would be quite stout. I am thinking a "center" top mount may be the solution to share the load with the front and rear top mounts when the sidecar wheel hits a rock and wants to tilt the bike to the left rather abruptly.
The big loop shown directly below the top "29" bolt, only on the right side of the bike, is the area I think a center strut should go to.
I don't have this itereation completely figured out, yet, but starting to get a picture gelled in my mind of what I think it will look like.
Back to way too many force vectors in my mind!!!
On the good side, having the rig apart is encouraging me to clean up a few last wiring details for switches and such that were zip tied to the top rear strut!
All thoughts and suggestions are appreciated. A lot of the prior ones over the past couple of years live rent free in my head, and have an impact on course of action. Just not always in the way expected!
I too had trouble with the upper rear mount.. Yes the LBS Overland set up does have a weakness.. I didn't break the mount or the LBS subframe, just the motor cycle frame where it is attached.. You have to look at utilizing both sides of the rear frame. Your idea of the C style clamp around the seat frame is good but it is still taking all the force of the upper strut on one side of the frame. The weak point and with your flexy front mount making the problem worse. Transferring some of that force over to the other side may help prevent future issues. A box or triangulation is best. I feel both of your upper struts must have some flex putting extra load on those two lower clampy type mounts. The twisting forces they are trying to resist is causing metal fatigue and failure. I feel a rig like yours the mounts should be ridged enough so that it should be able to loose any one of the four mounts with out impacting the other three. Maybe I am asking too much
@mgv8 (and @scott-h) Brian and Scott, thanks for the additional insights into that top rear mount. I took another, closer look at it, last night. That aluminum casting is actually a U section (U sideways, cavity facing inboard) cast rail. This changes my thinking a little bit about clamping down on it vertically.
I think I will make a clamp set that fits in the U channel and clamps it with the bolts and clamping forces horizontal, instead. Use the original bolts (if I can get the broken ones extracted) for positioning/snugging, prior to clamping to the vertical face of the seat rail.
Great idea about crossing over to the other side, as well. Maybe an arch under the rear fender that picks up the other two bolts that hold the left passenger foot peg mount is in order.
I think I am getting more committed to a 3rd upper strut that connects to the frame, above the rider footpeg, just under the tank, as well. That looks like a very solid mounting place in that opening shown in the diagram near the top bolt #29.
Appreciate the thinking and lessons learned!
Ok, so here is how I addressed the top mount...
Today's foolishness started out with a trip to the welding supply joint for a fresh tank of Argon gas for the TIG. They close at 4 pm, and I had ideas of working late this evening on fabbing up some sort of improvement in the way the top rear strut attaches to the bike side.
I probably devoted more brain power than I actually have to thinking about complex clamps that I could make, in lieu of extracting the two broken M8 bolts out of the aluminum cast seat tail frame rail. As I headed out, I stopped in the shop and decided to see if I could get them out, one more time.
The rail is injection molded aluminum, with a couple of bosses for the bolts to go thread into the aluminum casting. During last weekend's mishaps, both bolts snapped, after the lower A arms failed at the clamps where they join the lower sidecar frame tube.
The bolts held a piece of angle iron from the bottom, to the rail, with quite a cantilever arm from the strut mount to act on them. I have had this work loose a couple of times, so these bolts were both harder, longer, and loctited in.
I had thought, hey, at least one of them should be easy, just clamp a pair of vise-grips on the bolt stub and spin it on out. Ha Ha Ha! That was fun, except it wasn't.
The vise-grips got good purchase on the stub, but still couldn't hold enough torque to get it to move. It was in solid. I applied plenty of heat, but still no love.
Ok, so let's drill the bastard and use an easy out.
Nope... Got the easy out extractor in with a good grip, drilled maybe a 6mm hole so it could engage deep. Put a wrench on it and gently applied torque, up until I could feel the easy out hitting that point just before they snap off and leave an even bigger mess. I had also applied quite a bit of penetrating oil, incase the "stuckness" has something to do with dissimilar metals, corrosion, etc. No love.
Finally, (and you know I am stubborn) I screwed an 8mm nut onto the remnants of the bolt, and hit the center with the TIG welder to fuse the nut to the broken bolt.
Let it cool a little, but not too much, and put a wrench on it.
Finally, feeling a little love from it, as it broke loose and could be backed out:
So on to the 2nd bolt that had snapped off below flush with the boss.
Drilled, heated, put the extractor in, and no love. It definitely wanted to break the extractor, not remove the bolt.
At about that point, Claude called to chat about what his friends were thinking regarding lower A arm mounts that I am pondering. Of course I whined profusely about my thread extraction woes, and Claude made a great suggestion.
Why not drill it out just big enough to put a heli-coil in? This was especially cool, since I happened to have a kit of M8 x1.25 heli-coils, along with the right drill, left over from past adventures with rear brake rotor bolts in the Haan hub.
So, fortunately, I had a 90 degree drill that would clear the header pipes, without their removal. What could be more fun than laying on your back drilling overhead with hot chips raining down?
Drilled the bolt remanent out, mostly straight, and decided that since the hole went almost all the way through the boss, why not put it the rest of the way through, so I could run a bolt through, weld some tabs on the angle iron bracket, and have it clamp in double shear to the aluminum seat rail.
So that is what I did.
Pretty new threads. Not really necessary with the through hole, but add a layer of bolt security, if I run a bolt up from the bottom and then put a nut on the other side.
Took a break, ran out to the welding shop for the Argon, and came back to fiddle with the bracket mods:
Top strut mount mostly as it came from the old DMC in WA. You can see how downward force on the strut mount would put a lot of leverage against those poor little M8 bolt heads. I had slotted the holes enough to allow sliding the bracket tight against the vertical face of the rail, at least. It originally had about a 1/4" gap that increased the leverage on the bolts and allowed it to flex on inward forces.
Made and welded a couple of tabs onto the angle iron bracket to make it wrap around three sides of the aluminum frame rail.
We won't be looking too closely at the welding, today. It appears that in changing out the gas tank, I bumped the flow control valve downward significantly for the shield gas. I discovered this as I was welding, and things were a little ugly. Don't worry, they are stuck "real gud!"
Drilled the through hole from the bottom to run a long bolt all the way through the now U shaped mount and clamp it in double shear. Also drilled a couple of holes in the tabs and angle iron to be able to run bolts through, just behind the aluminum rail, and clamp the tabs down in double shear to the aluminum frame rail.
Left lower rear mounting hole alone, since I could run a bolt into the aluminum threads for some positioning/minor clamping force. Didn't run the rear hole all the way through the aluminum because it had a frame member at an angle, on top of the boss.
Bolted everything up for a test fit, prior to painting. Yeah, there was a little Dremel work on the holes to get the bolts to just fit snuggly behind the aluminum rail. Real custom stuff, that.
View from underside. Two bolts towards the sidecar are the original locations. The two bolts offset to the bike side go through the steel and clamp it against the frame rail. Overall, felt very solid, no flex when levered on with a big wrench.
Custom Krylon and it is ready for mounting in the morning.
I believe this arrangement is "a lot stronger" than it was. The notch in the parts I added is clearance for the strut that goes across the bike, connecting to the rail on the other side (factory Honda, not my addition.)
I do not believe that the aluminum seat rail is "good enough" though, for the rear top strut alone, as a total solution.
I have studied the frame diagrams, and meditated on the frame itself a little, and have come to the conclusion that a "Middle Top Strut" that goes from the position on the sidecar top frame rail to the the heaviest part of the bike's steel main frame, above and in front of the rider right foot peg, just underneath the gas tank, is probably a permanent solution.
A middle top strut will carry some of the load that the top rear strut currently takes by itself, especially on hits to the hack wheel when it goes over rocks and ruts.
Not saying it will never break, but I think it will move the needle to the right, considerably, as far as rigidity and strength go.
I am eagerly awaiting the arrival of the new A arms that Jonny shipped Monday. Should arrive Saturday afternoon. Stay tuned.
