Valve Adjustment Problem / Bad valve

Floyd, first...this IS going to be a can 'o worms, but hang in there, and collectively we can get this figured out.

Second, pictures help a lot.

Third, the cam lobe should not be directly 180* out from the valve stem, to measure gap. Typically the cam lobe is at the position between 1 o'clock and 2 o'clock......or...... between 10 o'clock and 11 o'clock, to get the thinest section of the cam, to measure the valve lash gap.

Fourth, darn lucky you found both the adjuster screw, and the lock nut. 

Fifth, it's possible that the valve stem is jammed in the valve guide, and damaged.

Others will add to this, but I believe you will end up needing to remove the cam, to investigate further.

Thanks, Miles (correct name?) I'd say when I was checking the valve the cam was at the 2 o'clock position. I'm thinking too, that at a minimum I'm going to be pulling the cam shaft for further investigation.  I've posted my situation on several other motorcycle related forums so hopefully I'll get some other good feedback.  I'll let you know how it works out.

Sounds like enough worms in that tin for a  fair old fishing expedition. 

Hope it works out OK. 

Here are a few pictures I tried to take today.

@floyd-h Floyd, couple of thoughts for what they are worth:

1.  Normally, you would check the valves on a particular cylinder with that cylinder at top dead center TDC on the compression stroke.  All 4 valves will be closed in this position, so you can check both intakes and exhausts.  

To get to TDC, normally with all plugs out, rotate the engine manually (either with a wrench OR in top gear and turn the rear drive wheel by hand) and watch the intake valve while using a BIG zip tie down the spark plug hole (don't drop it in) to feel for the piston coming up as far as it will travel, after the intake closes. 

There might be marks on the cam sprockets, but the zip tie method works well.  Then you can use a gauge to check clearances on all valves on that cylinder.  Repeat for the other cylinders.  Only rotate in the direction the engine normally runs.  Cam chain engines hate to be manually rotated backwards.

2.  Is the collar (valve spring retainer) that sits on the valve spring touching the tappet arm (cam follower?)  It should not ever be able to contact it, without some lash or clearance.  See pic, please check.

3.  If any part of the tappet arm is contacting any part of the valve without lash or clearance, at TDC, without the tappet adjuster screw installed, yeah something is rotten in the state of Denmark.

Since the tappet backed out, presumably while you were running the engine, here are a few ideas:

Scenario 1.  The tappet adjuster went free willy and got under the tappet at speed, and put interesting side load on the spring retaining collar, causing it to unseat the two wedge shaped clips (valve keepers) that retain it to the valve stem.  This MAY have let the spring and collar become not attached to the valve stem and be pressing it against the tappet in the area shown in the pic above.

When I look at the picture, to me, it looks like the keepers on the left valve are out of position and allowing the spring retainer to be up against the tappet (maybe?)

If this is the case, you MIGHT be able to:

Alternative 1: pull the cams, remove the offending tappet, then get a small valve spring compressor onto the valve, compress the spring, and reinstall the valve keepers into the groove they are supposed to be in. 

Alternative 2:  Use a compression tester tube to thread into the spark plug hole and pressurize the cylinder, using compressed air, with the engine in a high gear, so it does not rotate.  Do at TDC.  Pry down on the valve spring retainer with something like a screwdriver to take the tension off the jammed up valve keepers, use a small screw driver to poke them back into their correct, seated in the bottom groove position.  When done, they should look just like the ones on the right valve in the picture, kind of close together and even.  The compressed air keeps the valve from dropping while you pry the spring retainer down to take the tension off the keepers.  This is not fun, but is the easiest possible fix.

This scenario may not be terribly likely, because if it happened, I think you would have dropped a valve and had it contact a piston.  You would probably know if that happened by a lot of smoke from the exhaust bad noises and no power.  If the keepers slipped up a little, though, it would let the valve spring retainer hit the cam follower, and give you the symptoms you describe.

Here is what a cheap valve spring compressor looks like; most auto parts stores sell some form or another.  The trick is finding one small enough to fit.

Scenario 2.  Maybe I am misreading the picture, and that is just oil and a gap in the circled area; i.e. the valve spring retainer is not touching the tappet (cam follower, whatever you want to call the piece that the tappet adjuster screws into.) 

How much did you have to move the tappet on the right to get the correct clearance? 

I suppose it is possible, if the valve spring retainer is still in its correct position on the left valve, that the cam follower got bent when the adjuster screw went free willy on you.  If that is the case, probably pulling the cam, and checking the cam follower for deformation is a next step and then replace it.

Scenario 3.  Stuck/bent valve.  I would rule this out from your pictures.  When a valve sticks, hits the piston, and bends, usually this results in the spring retainer not traveling back to the top of its normal stroke.  This results in an excessive valve clearance gap, not a tight gap.  I do not think you have a bad valve.  I suppose if the face of the valve came completely off, it would allow the retainer to spring up against the cam follower, though.  I just think if that happened, though, you would have heard some very ugly noises.

Was the engine running ok or did you decide to take a look at the valves because of an event?

Can you do a compression test on this cylinder (and compare it to the others?)  I am assuming it will have low compression, if the valve is not fully closing, but knowing would help narrow down the issue.  If compression is good on that cylinder (150 psi+)  for sure no bent or stuck valves.

So with all that longwinded blathering out of the way...

Let us know about whether the spring retainer is up against the cam follower, with that cylinder at TDC.

If you can do a compression test, please share numbers on the cylinders.

You will probably end up pulling the cams, but may be able to salvage things without removing the cylinder head, if it is a good day.

Good luck!  Thanks for making me think a little...  ping me if you want to chat about it.

I must concur with the Man from Skunk Hollow, although, I cry FOUL.

The Man from Skunk Hollow had the advantage of viewing pictures that Floyd had posted, whereas I had to make a best guess, based on experience.

HOWEVER, The Man from Skunk Hollow IS NOT correct, the valve keepers are still in place on that valve. 

Yes, mine eyes have seen the glory of the valve keepers.

Just reinstall that adjusting screw, and screw it down far enough onto the valve stem, that you can SEE, and verify, that the valve keepers are still in place, as my super vision has proclaimed.

@miles-ladue Hey Miles, yep I think they are still in the general location, but I think they may have jumped out of the groove and let the spring retainer move up against the cam follower. 

Can't really tell from the picture clearly, but I think the gap in the keepers is larger on the left valve, meaning they may be out of their groove and just loitering in the vicinity...  a feeler gauge between the cam follower and the spring retainer on the left valve, at TDC, would tell us a lot.

Ben & Miles - Thank you both for your excellent comments and interest in my problem.  I've posted this issue on 4-5 other forums to include the Concours Owners Group (COG) of which I am a paying member. Your comments are the most helpful and thorough yet, which is further testament to the great group of USCA members.

   The cylinder was at TDC when I originally tried to check the valve.  To quote from my original post, "I was able to check and adjust the right side valve fine. But, when I tried to check the left side I could not even get the feeler gage under the tappet. I took that screw completely out and there was still no clearance to get the feeler gage in."

I'll try putting that adjuster back in, screw it down as far as I can, then take some more pictures. Hopefully that will help to see the keepers/retainers better. Or, maybe I'll just go ahead and pull the cam shaft off, which sounds like I'm going to have to do eventually anyway. It may be this weekend before I am able to do either. I've got some other non-motorcycle things to take care of. Plus, I'm in northern Illinois and it's pretty uncomfortable in my non-heated garage.

Do you mind giving me your cell phone numbers so I can call/text you experts if I get into a jam? If that's okay you can call/text me at 636-795-9232

Earlier  today I screwed the adjuster for that bad valve down as far as it would go in order to see the top of that valve better. To my untrained eyes, the spring retainer and keepers look okay. I took the adjuster screws for both of those exhaust valves completely out. I laid a small straight edge across the top of the valves and I could see that the left valve was sitting higher than the right valve. Note the scuff on the one picture of the cam lobe. This is not the cam for that bad valve but one of the intake valves. Is that scuffing anything to be concerned about? Running my bare finger over it, I couldn't feel any deformity or roughness.

Floyd, let's address the easier issue first, then come back to the issue that dictates you remove the head.

That witness mark you see, and have shown in pic # 2 of the cam lobe, I would not be concerned about at all. If you can NOT....as you say...feel any deformations or roughness with your fingernail, that all you are seeing is the wear witness mark. Use the pad of your thumb, and see if you can feel a slight dishing in the area of that witness mark. If no dishing, then pretend you are from New Jersey, and...fuhgeddaboudit

The big issue...pic # 3 & # 4 tell a big story compared to pic # 5 & # 6. Here is why....

In pic # 3 & # 4, we can see that the left valve is able to push down farther than the right valve, when both screw adjusters are pushing down on the valve stems. Admittedly the screw adjuster in screwed down farther on the left valve than the screw adjuster on the right valve. It is quite obvious, in the pictures, that the screw adjuster on the left valve is screwed in farther, making the left valve slightly lower in those two pictures.

But wait, there's more....the real problem is found in pics # 5 & # 6, when both of the screw adjusters are completely removed from the rocker arm.

In those last 2 pics you see that the left valve top cap IS slightly higher than the right valve top cap....and you say to yourself...Hmmm...

IMO, this can only be caused by one of two possibilities.

Either the valve STEM on the left valve has stretched (it does happen), and allowing the valve top cap to rise higher than the other valve...OR....

The left valve has been sucked....and what that means is that the valve seat ground into the head has either been damaged, which would then allow the valve to rise UP higher into the head than what the valve seat was cut to allow, or that the valve head has literally been sucked up into the head, deforming it, and allowing that valve to rise up higher than what it was designed to.

Generally, when an engine "sucks" a valve, that valve head gets deformed enough that it STICKS up into the valve seat, and won't come back down, as metal is jammed into metal, and something has to give, so the valve gets stuck UP into the head.

IMO, this is NOT what happened, because we can see in the pictures that the left valve CAN be pushed down, as shown in pic # 3, and # 4. This would prove to me that the valve head is NOT stuck into the valve seat.

I believe.............I say.......I do believe.....that because the adjuster screw Lock Nut came lose, this allowed the adjuster screw to UNSCREW from the rocker assy, and once that adjuster screw & nut were no longer holding that valve stem down, it allowed the valve to FLOAT at engine speed. Once the valve floated, I am of the opinion that the valve SEAT that is cut into the head got damaged, got rounded out, and is allowing that left valve to rise UP higher than the right valve.

Prognosis:  You will need to remove the cylinder head, verify that ALL valve seat are either perfect, or that one is damaged, and that means cutting a new valve seat, or replacing the head.

This is most unfortunate, because a 2005 Kawi Concours 1000 is usually known as a higher mileage engine, with many hitting 100K + miles, with no problems.

This problem was caused by someone previously not tightening that valve adjuster screw nut, as securely as they should have.

I sincerely hope I am wrong, but history has shown that 93.14159 % of the time, I am right.

I must agree with Miles diagnosis, having built well over 35 engines in my career this is my thoughts as well. 

@miles-ladue what he said...

Nothing useful to add.  I would vote for a damaged valve seat... pull the head and see.

I'm going for a burnt valve.

Thanks to all of you for the input and suggestions. A damaged valve seat sounds most logical from your comments and thus pulling the head. If I pull the head do any of you have a recommendation for someone doing the valve work on it? I live in Illinois, about 50 miles south of Chicago. I’ll try to get the head pulled this week.