Something that wasn't mentioned is to check your spokes for tightness, if you can get the front wheel up enough so it will spin and just tap the spoke and listen to the tone and get them as close to the same as you can, rear wheel also, your bike been around for a while so you probably have some that are loose.
Ted
Originally written by skiri251 on 4/20/2007 1:31 AM
Adjusted lean-out to 1 degree.
Toe-in was around 3/8".Went out for a test ride, There was no big change but I think right/left pull during accel/decel got even less.
Turning left/right from dead stop is really easy.
However if the rig is moving (5~10 mph..), turnig is still heavy.
Is this normal?
get it out on the HWY up to 60 or so and see if it drives straight with no pull left or right. that is where the lean out helps.if it pulls left or right at a level speed,[steady throttle] lean it out if pulling right, in if pulling left. lot of seat of the pants testing involved.keep leaning it out with the load and speed you will normally be traveling for the 'sweet spot' effortless cruising at your normal speed.
the steering will normaly be heavy, unless you made a triple tree mod or have LL suspension. then it is one hand a round corners!!
steering dampers can also make the steering heavy if they are not mounted correctly.
Originally written by Shadow1100T on 4/20/2007 12:02 AM
Something that wasn't mentioned is to check your spokes for tightness, if you can get the front wheel up enough so it will spin and just tap the spoke and listen to the tone and get them as close to the same as you can, rear wheel also, your bike been around for a while so you probably have some that are loose.
Ted
I rebuilt the wheels with new spokes almost a year ago.
I checked spoke tension once since then.
It's about time for the next check.
Thanks for reminding me.
Originally written by Bob in Wis on 4/20/2007 6:22 AM
get it out on the HWY up to 60 or so and see if it drives straight with no pull left or right. that is where the lean out helps.if it pulls left or right at a level speed,[steady throttle] lean it out if pulling right, in if pulling left. lot of seat of the pants testing involved.keep leaning it out with the load and speed you will normally be traveling for the 'sweet spot' effortless cruising at your normal speed.
the steering will normaly be heavy, unless you made a triple tree mod or have LL suspension. then it is one hand a round corners!!
steering dampers can also make the steering heavy if they are not mounted correctly.
I think the rig goes straight at constant speed (with my brief test ride). I will get on the HWY and make sure.
Do they sell LL suspension for '75 CB750K (unlikely..)?
I saw the CB750K rig with it on eBay once..
Not sure I like the looks though..
Maybe I should pursue triple tree mod route..
I can still find good used CB750K triple trees cheap on eBay.
Are there how-to's somewhere? (I will do the forum search.)
There is no DIY when it comes to doing a triple tree mod unless you have a machine shop and the jigs to make the mods, if your going to do it get a set of forks also if your going to take the sidecar off and ride, that way you can go back to stock, side car forks need a heavier weight oil than stock(25wt) and with the rake not taking them off and riding without the car will not be that pleasant, your rig looks real nice but the bars are not what you want with a sidecar, you will need wider bars to get more leverage for those right hand turns.
Ted
LL's can be made for any bike. but,,expensive.
A triple tree with trail mod will cost around $800 [Steerite], and helps VERY much.
But, you will still be using your original Fork tubes and bearings, which are not made for side stesses induced by SC use. left and right turns with the original forks put a lot of sideways stress on them including the bearings, which are designed for upright loads only. the forks will also flex left and right in turns. not good.
$800.. ouch.
And of cource I don't even have a welder..
I will go out on my favorite winding road this weekend (hopefully.. it's raining here in southern California!) and see if the current setup is a good substitute for going to a gym, or a little too much.
I also read that leading fork legs will help. (I don't understand why.. Need to read that sidecar manual.) CB750 C model may have those and may fit K model w/o modification.
Shigeo,
The "leading leg" mods work the same way as the LL's and triple tree mods do. They are designed to reduce trail which leads to easier steering. I have never used them so I don't know just how much reduction they offer. The vendors should have that data.
Your next least expessive trail reduction mod would be raked trees. Some do this on an exchange basis but in light of your bikes vintage this is probably not an option in your case. If you go this route be prepared for a wait before you get your trees back.
Lonnie
If you go for a very long ride your gonna think you've been to the gym, especially the right handers, remember to slow down when going into a right turn and then when in the turn give it some gas, the opposite for left also be very careful if you come to a downhill right that's off camber, sometimes a sign showing a semi tipping is showing that's off camber, move as far right as you can because they can be memorable to say the least.
Ted
Ted Said: "remember to slow down when going into a right turn and then when in the turn give it some gas, the opposite for left".
From this one might think that they should "give it the gas" when going into a left turn and slowing down in the turn (not wise).
Being a new unschooled sidecar pilot, I would suggest slowing down before either left or right turns that you are unfamiliar with and accelerating after the apex of the turn when you can see a clear roadway ahead.
Lonnie
Originally written by Hack'n on 4/20/2007 11:42 AM
Shigeo,
The "leading leg" mods work the same way as the LL's and triple tree mods do. They are designed to reduce trail which leads to easier steering. I have never used them so I don't know just how much reduction they offer. The vendors should have that data.
Your next least expessive trail reduction mod would be raked trees. Some do this on an exchange basis but in light of your bikes vintage this is probably not an option in your case. If you go this route be prepared for a wait before you get your trees back.Lonnie
I don't understand the differences among caster, trail, rake, etc.
I browsed Hal's sidecar operator's manual but couldn't find them. Where can I get the info on them? The figures will help also..
As for the triple trees, fork tubes, legs for CB750K, there are lots of used ones on eBay so I can buy a set for specifically sidecar use and keep what I have now. CB750 was a popular bike and the same model continued for 10 years so there are lots of donors still around.
Originally written by Hack'n on 4/20/2007 6:58 PM
Ted Said: "remember to slow down when going into a right turn and then when in the turn give it some gas, the opposite for left".
From this one might think that they should "give it the gas" when going into a left turn and slowing down in the turn (not wise).Being a new unschooled sidecar pilot, I would suggest slowing down before either left or right turns that you are unfamiliar with and accelerating after the apex of the turn when you can see a clear roadway ahead.
Lonnie
Thanks.
I will be very very careful.
I put a brief write up about rake and trail and some different ways to alter them on a Trike message board recently. This link should get you there:
http://trikersarge.proboards50.com/index.cgi?board=techtalk&action=display&thread=1172342488
I had posted some photos of different commercial modifications, but they aren't there anymore. You can find most of them on the Dauntless web page- Jay has built some innovative fork mods.
You really should consider wider handle bars. I bet you have enuf slack from sliding the forks up in your triple trees that you won't even need to change the cables. Also think about leaving the rear tire you have as it is but changing the front for a low profile sportbike tire-this should drop the front end some more, agian reducing your trail. Ask your local bike shop if they have a throwaway tire out back you can try. If iit yeilds the results you are after, buy a new tire from them. If not you aren't out any money for trying!
If you are interested in taking a sidecar class I have one a month starting in May and running thru October. May is almost full but still has some openings. I think June is filling up too. There is a gentleman from Southern California planning to ride up for the June class who is looking for some one to ride up with him...
In recent years there has been some confusion brought abou tthat is related to terminology. Semantics in exssence can cause confusion and get folsk to talking about things that may or may not mean the same or differen tthings. What has happened is that the term 'rake' has been used for one thing where it really shoudl have been used for another.
'Rake' in the real sense as related to motorcycles speaks of the steering head angle of the bike and is typically expressed in degrees. Look at th espes of various bikes and sometimes this is lited. It will be soewhere around 28 degrees or so.
The confusion comes in when we speak of rakeing something. Rakeing means to change the angle from stock. So we see the term 'raked triple trees'. What this means is that the trees are modified to change the angle of the forks. In other words the forks tube position has been 'raked' as th eangle of them has been changed. This is also expressed in degrees such as maybe 3 or 6 degrees. These small degree numbers mean how far the angle has been changed from stock.
The actual 'rake' of the steering head in the motorcycle frame is not changed in this case as only the trees have been modified.
Take a look at the photo Vernon supplied.
http://www.tiny.cc/h3fzp
It was taken from Doug Bingham's sidestrider site and modified for SCT by myself quite a while ago.
Raking the forkes with triple tree mods is done to change the trail. Too bad that trail figures are not suppled insted of the degree of change as is presently popular.
Trail can be defined for all practical purposes to act in usage the same way that caster does on a car. Google trail and google caster and it will begin to make sense. AS A RULE, EXCEPT FOR SOME CENTER HUB STEERING APPLICATIONS, THE TERM 'TRAIL' WILL PERTAIN TO MOTORCYCLES AND 'CASTER' TO CARS.
Less trail equates to easier steering...simple expalnation but even though there is more to it than that alone there is no need to make it complicated.
When it is suggested to raise the rear of the bike or lower the front of the bike we are then actually slightly changing the steering head rake a little bit which affects trail. Rake in relation to the frame was not changed of course but only in relation to the ground itself.
If you look at the diagram closely and think of how trail is measured then it will become evident on why a smaller diameter front wheel and tire combination will reduce trail. The imagine hwo runnig the forks up through the triple trees will reduce trail too.
Typically leading link manufaturers will also not speak of what the trail actually is. The main goal is to create easier steering and if the consumer ends up with that all is felt to be well.
Too little trail will take away any feel of the steering. Some who have experimented with trail variations will settle on what they like and do not like. Some racers run zero static trail. This is not acceptable to some and is not the way to go on the street at all. I say static trail as the trail will increase soem when under way but that is another topic and not worth discussing here.
Negative trail is a definate no no. It will kill any and all self centring effects and make the rig uncontrollable. If anyonw wants to see what negative trail is all about run you rig up a slight incline, stop, put it in netral and coast back down backwards. The steering will want to flop over to the the side. Why? No self centering effect due to no trail or negative trail.
Again, study the picture closely and soem of thsi will begin to make sense.
