This is a very consistent problem and there is a lot of foggy knowledge being offered. the knowledge is good but the real application is not clearly defined. there is no mention of any actual measurement points merely things like back wheel or front wheel etc and this leaves much up to individual interpretation.
It would help if we defined certain points as being the true datum points.
Maybe we could say the back axle and like with a Harley you have the brake disc which is a true indicator of the wheel direction which can be projected to a point on the ground say at 90 degs to the middle of the front wheel footprint. Now when you set toe in you have a std and with a little further effort you can find a set of datum points one on the front motorcycle frame and one on the side car frame that could be measured to establish the toe in for reference without having to use beams etc. I have a threaded adjustor at my rear hard point that I can measure the adjustment and if I move the adjustor 3/16" it will change the toe in 1/16" I also have a zero mark for reference
Now about lean. We talk about 1 deg. 1 deg. from what. The road surface/camber or 1 deg to vertical as shown with an angle finder and that again is a moving target as the camber can change depending on the particular road/area you are in. I gave up and just made me an electrical camber trim so I can make periodic adjustments to my lean to get near neutral steering as I go down the road. I lift or lower the side car and that tilts the bike
This is all vital knowledge and varies from a set std according to brand and model etc, but it can develop some good methodologies that can be applied by anyone with a few tools if they have a problem in that area
Nobody is telling anybody to do this or do that . You are merely telling what you have learned or know and its up to the individual as to what they do with your experiences. They worked for you maybe they work for him . Chuck
I hope this might be of use to you.
Thanks Tom. I will try to up the front tire pressure to see if it helps with head shake.
My heavy steering is due to the damper so I am looking at the possibility of taking a suitable air cylinder going hydraulic with light oil and putting in a bypass valve that I can adjust to apply just sufficient damping to stop the head shakes. I have the steering bearings pretty snug but that did not really help much. I would love to get rid of the damper, so I keep trying. I have got sufficient miles on the rig to find everything that comes loose and have pretty much done the blue loctite or nylock thing to cure that That check list is really a good piece of info.
Question is a little occasional head shake normal or can it be completely eliminated Thks Chuck
The rain stopped for a bit so I went out and checked front pressure 35 lbs so I took it to 40 lbs and I am going to ride tomorrow out to a job I have. The tire says it can go 49 lbs Its a Shinko back tire running backwards and has a very rounded profile Chuck
I'd like to see toe-in measured in degrees, rather than inches, since an inch measurement is dependent on where the measurement is taken.
If measuring in degrees, what would be your base line for measuring from?
Actual toe in measurements are not all that critical as long as you get it very close. Measuring by the angle you would need to establish a base reference point, no different then using straight edges and a tape measurement. You need base points you agree on. Would you be able to tell the difference between 2. 01 degree's and 2 degree's most likely not with measurement equipment people are likely to have. When we measure we take the reading from just behind the rear wheel and just ahead of the bikes front wheel. Adjust the numbers we are looking for based on how long the bike is. For instance a Goldwing is about a foot longer then many other bikes, so we look for a larger number. Riding the bike I doubt if you would be able to tell the difference between 1 3/16 inch toe on a Goldwing and 1 1/4 inch. As long as you agree on the measuring methods it simply does not matter. Two straight edges and a tape measure are tools most people have or can get and can figure out how to properly use. They also work good enough. Reminds me of a saying. Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with caulk, cut it off with a chain saw. The numbers you get are only as good as the tools you have and the skills you have to use these tools and at the end of the day close is good enough most people would never tell the difference nor would tire wear be much different +/- 1/16 of an inch.
Jay G
DMC sidecars
www.dmcsidecars.com
Quote from CCjon on March 29, 2021, 8:59 amIf measuring in degrees, what would be your base line for measuring from?
Doesn't matter. As long as you know the front measurement, rear measurement, and distance between where you took the measurements. The difference in the measurements, what we call toe, divided by the distance between measuring points, is the tangent of the toe angle. The inverse tangent of that number will give you the toe in degrees.
Jay that is a classic.
"Reminds me of a saying. Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with caulk, cut it off with a chain saw"
I watched as Hannigan mounted the refurbished sidecar on the new bike. Even with the changes they made to the mounts it was seemliness.
Bolted it up looked at it. Took it out side ran it around the buildings brought it in adjusted toe a bit. Handed it to me. I took off for an hour test ride came back happy. They checked it again and then checked all was tight. There is a difference when you have experienced people doing the work.
This is good, I suppose that my way of using a adjuster at the back is probably doing it by degrees tho I have no real idea of what the actual is it seems to work. Its like changing side "a" on a right triangle to increase or decrease the angle. My bike is very short wheelbase and the measurement taken with beams using the back disc at the datum point was 5/8" I have put a little more in but I am mostly playing with the electric lean adjuster right now. Saw the trimmer on Helge Pedersons bike courtesy of DMC and copied that sort of. I am getting to like it a lot
I tend to agree that every rig is different and we mostly have to start using ball parks and going from there by trial and error. My bike is very camber sensitive and I am almost able to predict which way its going to drift looking at the road ahead and so I am forewarned. I do not trim for these changes just when a condition persists for a while. I think that right now my biggest problem is Head shake at low speed and I am working on that. I am looking at putting a little positive torque on the neck bearing adjustment. I have no indications of looseness when I jack the front up and shake the thing but loading could possibly introduce a little side play into the top race. Anybody know anything about this and have any suggestions as to how much torque to apply. I did not find any improvement when I upped the front tire to 40 lbs
I am also thinking of moving the car wheel axle a little closer to the back axle to lessen the steering resistance to turn Its running about level with the center of the back tire right now. Any advice??? later Chuck
I'm thinking to mark what you measured with caulk might be a bit messy. Especially in the chain saw teeth. To each their own but I think in this case I'd rather use chalk... Smiling as I write that.
Without work on the front end rake and or other mods you will have some front end shake at low speeds All adjustments will do is maybe mover the speed it happens a little in either direction. In most case keep hands on the bars it is not an issue really. Raising front tire pressure can cause faster wear and less surface contact .
Mucho Gracias Senor Smitty. So we just live with it. I will no doubt ask a lot of questions because this is my first sidecar rig tho I have been riding 2 wheels since 1957. If it is the nature of the beast I can live with it. By the same token if it can be corrected I want to do that too. I do not want to waste time or resources chasing windmills either so that is why I ask a lot of dumb questions.
I started this endeavor around the end of July and have learned a tremendous amount mostly by screwing up and learning that that is not the right way so back to the drawing board and do it again. Right now I believe that except for a few items I believe I have a very nice rig that is a lot of pleasure to ride in fair weather and foul. It must look good because I do get a lot of complements from total strangers. My bike has a very retro look and the Ural car is an ikon in the side car world so they do go together very well. It is going to be my last build so I am sparing no effort to make it as good as I can. I have been making several trips from Travelers rest SC to Columbia SC where I have access to a pretty large stash of Harley parts and also a lot of good company. This is also my shake out and I am not having any problems . Really the rig runs very well. I have no real yardstick to measure against so things like how heavy can the steering be and such things is where my inexperience is showing because I do not have anything to compare to Later Chuck
Can you or have you posted a pic of your outfit? I would like to see it
Now get out and ride it learn to use the pull and push natural to a sidecar to your advantage. Watch tire wear for any need adjustments. And Have fun.
