I'm still very much the newbie, although this past weekend my wife and I took a longish trip to Pennsylvania to go camping with my BMW Airhead buddies. Round trip -- about 540 miles. Mostly okay although I had a few scary moments while winding through Amish country on back roads, avoiding a huge traffic stop on I95...
Even though I had plenty of weight in and on the sidecar, with wife and camping gear, I was having some very nervous moments wondering if the sidecar wheel would lift in a right-hander and let me glide gracefully into oncoming traffic.
Being the inveterate tinkerer, I wondered if there might be some way to rig up a sensor that would warn me if my sidecar wheel was getting light. Specifically I'm thinking of a switch on the shock/spring assembly that would sound an alarm and/or flash a light if the suspension got close to full extension.
Yeah, yeah, I know. With experience I'll learn just how much I can hang it out. I'd be better convinced if I didn't have an analogous problem when two-wheeling. I don't know just how much I can lean in a corner before the tires will let go, so I tend to ride much more conservatively than I need to. In both cases I can't just say, "Whoops, too much!" and hit reset. The penalty for overcooking it, especially in traffic, can be very nasty. Call me chicken.
Aside from fear of inadvertently flying the sidecar, I had another issue. I found out that the front tire could 'plow' under the wrong conditions. Once it let me slide into the oncoming lane. The Gods of Motorcycling let me and my passenger live -- there was no oncoming traffic just then -- but it alerted me to the fact that lifting the sidecar wheel was not the only way to get crossed up with that rig.
The front tire is a Metzler with plenty of tread, so it isn't a junk tire. I reduced the air pressure in the front by 5 psi, in the hope that would give me a little more 'stick'. But I'm very aware that underinflation can be as bad or worse than overinflation.
So, long way around, but my question is, has anybody heard of a tip warning sensor? If so, was it of any use?
Best,
Ed Bianchi
BMW '87 K75C/Dauntless "Lady Carol"
You need no stinking sensor that would warn you if my sidecar wheel was getting light. All you need a big parking lot and several hours. Soon you will have fun to take your chair up in the air.
Also you do not have to glide gracefully into oncoming traffic. Just slow down.
A tip sensor would do no good in a decreasing radius right turn. If the suspension topped out you would already be commited to the oncoming lane or upside down.
Slow before going into the corners and power out at the apex of the turn if you are in that much of a hurry.
Practicing Throttle and front brake in the right turns will help keep the car down some but it takes a bit of practice to finesse this maneuver.
Lonnie
Had to edit this. I was thinking of a leftie hack.
Tip warning sensor = your back part you sit on.
Pretty fast the 4 letters you sit on get the necessary sensitivity.
....
I do know a couple of acceleration sensors for a lot of money that could do the trick in theory, but there is no way to program the needed PLC in the right way.
Sorry I just read the title of your post, but I couldn't keep back this comment.
So please don't feel offended.
More later at another oportunity.
Sven
Ed Bianchi - 9/28/2010 1:42 PM
... I found out that the front tire could 'plow' under the wrong conditions. Once it let me slide into the oncoming lane.....
Ed, I've only experienced "plowing" to the left under two circumstances: 1) When locking up the front brakes in practice -- that'll make the rig spin to the left as soon as the front tire loses traction (Jena discovered that in training when she locked both front and rear); and 2) When unprepared for the push of the sidecar in a hurried stop, that is, failing to sufficiently control/push the left grip to compensate for the weight/momentum of the sidecar. Both of these situations can be better controlled by the occasional parking lot practice of hurried/panic stops.
Hmmm ...It's been a while for us. Maybe Jena and I oughta practice a few before we head out Friday to the Ural rally in Hot Springs, Arkansas.
Lee
MB5+TW200+CRF250L+GTV300+INT650
XL883R w/Texas Ranger Sidecar
Zuma 50F + Burgman w/Texas Sidecar<Mrs. SwampFox
Ed,
This idea comes up from time to time, particularly from new riders. (Pssst. Including me!) Basically it is felt that, by the time the buzzer goes off, it is too late and if you set it to go off early, it will be going off with false signals on every right turn. The human brain is the best sensor there in. Just go to a parking lot and practice, practice, practice and your "sensor" will learn when things are OK, when they are iffy and when the do-do is about to hit the fan.
Did I mention to practice?
Sarge
Hello Ed,
as you call "plow" is indeed the best back feed for having bad ground traction on snow, gravel, mud or a wet road. And still with a hearty weight shift you are able to steer by drifting!
Something you aren't able to do with any other motorized vehicle.
The lifting side car is not too dangerous.
In a right turn a little more dangerous is shifting your weight TOO LATE because of inertia or a sudden lifting bump.
What is indeed dangerous is a tilt over the sidecar nose.
Especially if the nose "catches" the ground. Therefore in my first rig I mounted a PE pad in the corner (low friction plastic which permitted me still to slide around)
Imagine with that rig I was able to go down a one lane road at 35km/h make a 180 degree turn and back off the opposite direction still with 30km/h.
No need to mention that every 7000km I had to straighten out the cheep East German iron frame once and again.
Watch this. It will happen that fast you have no change to react, a beeping sensor just will confuse more.
German saying is:
"Erfahrung kommt vom Fahren!"
"Experience comes from riding!"
Best wishes
Sven
I guess you could build some sort of a "tipping sensor" but I wouldn't bother. If you are in danger of raising the wheel with a passenger, you are simply riding too fast for conditions. The answer is to slow down to an acceptable speed.
If the wheel were to come up in a tight corner at speed, you have little control. You are at risk and have little time to slow down and correct. Straightening the bike will bring the wheel down but won't permit you to make the right turn.
It pays to keep the speed at a level where everything or anything you do has a safety margin. JMO.
As far a tiupping sensors go I agre ewith Sarge...YOUR BRAIN is th ebest sensor that can be had. To activate this sensor you must take the personal responsibility to practice! If you do your sensor will get better and better directly related to how much you ar ewilling top practice. Simple really but it is up to you.
gnm wROTE:
" If the wheel were to come up in a tight corner at speed, you have little control. You are at risk and have little time to slow down and correct. Straightening the bike will bring the wheel down but won't permit you to make the right turn. "
No doubt good intentions formed this statement. If we are talking about turns into the sidecar the statments here are simply wrond though. In left handers (turns away from the sidecar) there is some truth to this but turns into the sidecar can be controlled under most circumstances. With practice one can easily and actually safely go through right handers wiht the sidecar wheel off th eground at sped.....BUT....one needs to work with some practice to get to that point. Why bother"? Well if we practice safely a little above or present skill envelopes we will move our skill levels a little higher up the scale. Why? When the moment of truth comes out on the road we must react. We can talk about techniques all day and plan our actions accordingly but it our REACTIONS to the moment at hand that will save our butt in the crisis. We can pan ou ractions but not our reactions. Reactions must come naturally. Reactiosn to any immediate situation WILL come naturally. If these reactions are wrong we are screwed. To nurture good reactions takes practice. Not willing to practice? Who's fault is that?
The original questions and concerns were good. They are also common concerns to those who are new to sidecars. Please take into consideration what responses you have received....weigh them , think them out and above all P R A C T I C E.
P R A C T I CE should never stop....we can always learn more and increase our chances on doing the right thing at the right time. This is what saves lives no matter what vehicle we are one or in.
claude #3563 - 9/30/2010 5:31 AM
As far a tiupping sensors go I agre ewith Sarge...YOUR BRAIN is th ebest sensor that can be had. To activate this sensor you must take the personal responsibility to practice! If you do your sensor will get better and better directly related to how much you ar ewilling top practice. Simple really but it is up to you.
gnm wROTE:
" If the wheel were to come up in a tight corner at speed, you have little control. You are at risk and have little time to slow down and correct. Straightening the bike will bring the wheel down but won't permit you to make the right turn. "No doubt good intentions formed this statement. If we are talking about turns into the sidecar the statments here are simply wrond though. In left handers (turns away from the sidecar) there is some truth to this but turns into the sidecar can be controlled under most circumstances. With practice one can easily and actually safely go through right handers wiht the sidecar wheel off th eground at sped.....BUT....one needs to work with some practice to get to that point. Why bother"? Well if we practice safely a little above or present skill envelopes we will move our skill levels a little higher up the scale. Why? When the moment of truth comes out on the road we must react. We can talk about techniques all day and plan our actions accordingly but it our REACTIONS to the moment at hand that will save our butt in the crisis. We can pan ou ractions but not our reactions. Reactions must come naturally. Reactiosn to any immediate situation WILL come naturally. If these reactions are wrong we are screwed. To nurture good reactions takes practice. Not willing to practice? Who's fault is that?
The original questions and concerns were good. They are also common concerns to those who are new to sidecars. Please take into consideration what responses you have received....weigh them , think them out and above all P R A C T I C E.
P R A C T I CE should never stop....we can always learn more and increase our chances on doing the right thing at the right time. This is what saves lives no matter what vehicle we are one or in.
"Easily and safely go through right handers with the wheel off the ground"......Whatever you say, Claude.
Ed, if you come up with a good plan for a sensor, send it to me! I need one for some experiments I want to do. I was thinking along the same lines: when the shock is all the way extended it should be about to lift.
I don't think this gadget would have any application as a safety device or an aid to your driving, for the reasons mentioned in the previous posts. I also suspect you were probably nowhere near raising the wheel on your rig as described. If the wheel does come up, keep your head, look and steer where you want to go and you should be fine. Take a class if you can, and practice. Find less trafficked areas to get some miles in. Saddle time will improve your confidence.
Vernon,
industrial acceleration sensors would do the trick. They are now available with all 3 dimensions separate. The best I know are from SKF for big bucks with all kind of analysis and graphical evaluation.... they are used for investigating fatigue bearings, way guides .... in big machinery.
There is a US company that has even low cost sensors you mount direct on each bearing and leave it there. From 85$ upwards with a simple digital output. But I forgot the brand in spite I got very impressed 2 years ago on a machinery fair. Make some research.
Sven
gnm109 - 9/30/2010 10:06 AM
claude #3563 - 9/30/2010 5:31 AM
As far a tiupping sensors go I agre ewith Sarge...YOUR BRAIN is th ebest sensor that can be had. To activate this sensor you must take the personal responsibility to practice! If you do your sensor will get better and better directly related to how much you ar ewilling top practice. Simple really but it is up to you.
gnm wROTE:
" If the wheel were to come up in a tight corner at speed, you have little control. You are at risk and have little time to slow down and correct. Straightening the bike will bring the wheel down but won't permit you to make the right turn. "No doubt good intentions formed this statement. If we are talking about turns into the sidecar the statments here are simply wrond though. In left handers (turns away from the sidecar) there is some truth to this but turns into the sidecar can be controlled under most circumstances. With practice one can easily and actually safely go through right handers wiht the sidecar wheel off th eground at sped.....BUT....one needs to work with some practice to get to that point. Why bother"? Well if we practice safely a little above or present skill envelopes we will move our skill levels a little higher up the scale. Why? When the moment of truth comes out on the road we must react. We can talk about techniques all day and plan our actions accordingly but it our REACTIONS to the moment at hand that will save our butt in the crisis. We can pan ou ractions but not our reactions. Reactions must come naturally. Reactiosn to any immediate situation WILL come naturally. If these reactions are wrong we are screwed. To nurture good reactions takes practice. Not willing to practice? Who's fault is that?
The original questions and concerns were good. They are also common concerns to those who are new to sidecars. Please take into consideration what responses you have received....weigh them , think them out and above all P R A C T I C E.
P R A C T I CE should never stop....we can always learn more and increase our chances on doing the right thing at the right time. This is what saves lives no matter what vehicle we are one or in."Easily and safely go through right handers with the wheel off the ground"......Whatever you say, Claude.
i don't mean to overstate this but it is not uncommon with sidecars if the driver is agressive.
This is especially true on a lighter outfit.
Even if a driver is not agressive there can be cases that come up such as a decreasing radius turn , having to avoid an obsticle in the road or whatever.
If one is willing to practice he is doing himself and others a favor as he will be more able to pull off maneuvers that otherwise may be foreign to him. It just makes good sense. This has nothing to do with hot dogging or showing off it has to do with raising one's skill base in the name of safety. Kinda like learning to correct for a skid when driving in the snow maybe? Some can say " I never skid in the snow because I am a safe driver".....alrighty then....but......
Peter Pan - 9/30/2010 11:00 AM
Vernon,
industrial acceleration sensors would do the trick. They are now available with all 3 dimensions separate. The best I know are from SKF for big bucks with all kind of analysis and graphical evaluation.... they are used for investigating fatigue bearings, way guides .... in big machinery.
There is a US company that has even low cost sensors you mount direct on each bearing and leave it there. From 85$ upwards with a simple digital output. But I forgot the brand in spite I got very impressed 2 years ago on a machinery fair. Make some research.
Sven
If a given outfit has down travel on the sidecar suspension a simple switch that tells you when the sidecar swingarm passes a certain point of down travel could activate a light on the dash or something like that. Usefull? I think not really.
After all what would one do when the light comes on? Gee my light is on on I better slow down? Chopping the throttle can be a bad thing when in this situation.....the best key to the perceived delima is , again, P R A C T I C E.
Lots of interesting replies -- thank you all!
To clarify a bit... I'm not saying that I'd rely on a tip sensor to save my sorry butt. I see it as an aid to learning just how close I am to the line under differing circumstances. Eventually I hope to gain that seat-of-the-pants knowledge that will allow me to corner with confidence whatever the scenario. In the meantime I'd hope to minimize the number of Ex-Lax moments on my journey to operational competence.
My conceptual design for the sensor is a series of hall effect switches placed opposite a rare-earth magnet which is mounted - say - on the moving end of the shock absorber. The read-out would be a series of LED's mounted on the windscreen where they would be easy to see. Or perhaps I could adapt a digital VU meter, commonly used for audio equipment.
Now I know things will be bouncing around, but my hope is that I'll be able to puzzle out, by glancing at how many LED's are on, just how close I am to lifting the sidecar wheel.
The goal here is to gain an objective way to measure what is going on, so the first indication I am overcooking it is not a big, scary "Whoops! Flying sidecar!" in traffic.
As I said earlier, my guess is I am being overly cautious in the right-hand turns. Primarily because I'm old enough and have enough miles behind me that I know I am not indestructible, or anything like it. Plus I get really, really edgy about involving a passenger in my whoopsie.
Trouble is, by being overly cautious I'm getting traffic up my butt. Two reasons I don't like that:
1) I don't like being held up by slow drivers either
2) I REALLY don't like being tailgated.
What I have learned so far from this thread:
1) My idea is not new (no surprise there)
2) Nobody makes such a thing (no surprise there either)
3) Experienced sidecarists think I need more experience (I don't disagree)
4) At least a few people think it might be an interesting little gizzie, if maybe not all that useful (To Be Determined)
So, for now I'll sit back and think and scratch my head, and stare at my rig and think some more. If I actually start to cut metal and solder wires, I'll report back.
