Hey Claude,
I didn't realize I stole that drawing from you! It is a very clear illustration and I have used it several times in these types of discussions( I hope you don't mind).
Several people have suggested elsewhere in this forum that leading links are the only way to go both for setting up acceptable trail and to combat issues of fork flex and wear. I recently got to compare Dauntless' new KLR links with my two KLR rigs, one with stock fork set up and the other with the forks slid up in the clamps. These links are significantly better than the stock rigs in terms of steering effort, yet do not give up stability and predictable steering.
On the other hand, the stock telescopic forks, reputed to be flexible on KLRs even without a sidecar, do work just fine. I have not noticed issues with stiction or premature fork seal failure and the handling is fine but a bit of a workout by the end of the day. I may try a fork brace to see if it makes a noticeable difference, and I would like to get some links when money allows, but, honestly, I can drive these things right now and they work fine. For me the money will be better spent addressing the weak rear suspension of the KLR.
My advice to newcomers to sidecars is to run what you have until you get the experience to evaluate the handling. Sidecars are going to seem strange and ill handling compared to a solo bike until you get to know them, know what to expect and how to exploit the advantages and deal with the disadvantages of an asymmetrical 3 wheeler. If you have a death wobble or it just won't turn address those issues, but do so incrementally.
First check for errors in the set up or weaknesses or failures in the mounts and chassis.
Then systematically check or alter the simple and cheap stuff, one thing at a time: Is the bike sound? are the steering head, swingarm and wheel bearings good? Is your tire pressure correct? will changing pressures or tire patterns improve your handling?
Look at the ergonomics of the bike - you want a seating position and handlebar width and style that gives you good leverage and control and allows you to shift your weight to aid in cornering control
Check and recheck your alignment. Did you measure accurately and are your measurements done consistently so you can recheck your work? Did you account for the difference in front & rear tire width when checking toe in?
Did you check toe-in and leanout with the bike and sidecar loaded as you normally use the rig(suspension compression will change lean out and can affect toe in-measure with the suspension compressed). Recheck both leanout and toe-in when ever you change one or the other.
I would advise against investing in expensive and difficult modifications to the rig or to the front forks until you have spent some time getting to know it and experimenting with some of these other variables. Then, if you find you like sidecars but you still have some handling issues, particularly if steering effort is a problem, look at modifying the front end.
claude your link to your drawing didn't work for me- here is a different link:
Shigeo,
Some more information on this can be found at the Sidecar Industry Council website.
Lonnie
Claudes drawing does a nice job of showing how trail is measured but I have a question on how toe in is measured, I know that you use two parallel pieces of equal length of what ever that are straight, one on the motorcycle with the spacing corrected for the difference in tire sizes(front narrow,back wide) and one on the side car, lets say that I want a 1/4' toe in, at what point does one measure to get the correct measurement. If the, lets say boards, are 8' long, do you put the 4' mark on center line of the sidecar wheel and measure both ends after the motorcycle board set to the sidecar board using diagonal measurements to get it squared up to the sidecar board?, I'm a newbe and newbe's get to ask dumb questions 🙂
Ted
Thanks again for all the help.
That thread in trikes message board solved the "rake" mystery.
Raked forks to me implied chopper front end which makes turning very difficult even for a solo bike.
The figure shows that the steering head angle remains the same while only the forks are "raked". I didn't know raked forks relative to steering head actually makes steering lighter. Very interesting.
I went out today on twisties I usually go (it's just an hour long ride. I cannot go further without incurring the wrath of my wife..)
Before I left, I lifted the front end slightly because the fender was hitting the exhaust header when the forks bottommed. The nasty wobble came back so I had to lower it back again.
Riding through twisties was very interesting experience.
I thought I might miss leaning the bike but that wasn't the case.
My shoulders/arms are okay.
I noticed that with some throttle work, turning was sometimes very easy.
Unfortunately I couldn't understand what throttle work made the good corners.
Once I was doing 50mph in right turn. I thought I was going too fast so I eased the gas but that made the rig go left and I feared I would hit the guard rail.. Also I noticed downhill right turn with red light ahead was really scary..
Anyway I came back in one piece so that's a good thing.
Originally written by RedMenace on 4/21/2007 1:34 AM
If you are interested in taking a sidecar class I have one a month starting in May and running thru October. May is almost full but still has some openings. I think June is filling up too. There is a gentleman from Southern California planning to ride up for the June class who is looking for some one to ride up with him...
Yes!
I will take an early vacation and go with my family.
Do I need to take my rig with me?
Could you email me the details?
Originally written by Shadow1100T on 4/21/2007 4:50 PM
Claudes drawing does a nice job of showing how trail is measured but I have a question on how toe in is measured, I know that you use two parallel pieces of equal length of what ever that are straight, one on the motorcycle with the spacing corrected for the difference in tire sizes(front narrow,back wide) and one on the side car, lets say that I want a 1/4' toe in, at what point does one measure to get the correct measurement. If the, lets say boards, are 8' long, do you put the 4' mark on center line of the sidecar wheel and measure both ends after the motorcycle board set to the sidecar board using diagonal measurements to get it squared up to the sidecar board?, I'm a newbe and newbe's get to ask dumb questions 🙂
Ted
Ted,
as far as I know there is no standard way of doing this, nor is there a standard way of determining leanout. neither is there a single set of measurements that will work for all bikes and all riders.
Most people will measure straight across directly behind the rear wheel. and directly in front of the front wheel to the opposite straight edge subtracting the front measurement from the rear to get the toe in. This is how I do it:
I set the straight edges up on bricks so they hit the tire/wheel in two places fairly distant, about 6" off the ground. I point the front wheel perfectly straight ahead. Since the front tire is narrower than the rear tire on my rigs, I can ignore it. I push the straight edge up against the rear tire so it is flush against it. Providing my rear tire is in good alignment and not cocked to one side this should give me my left line. I set up the other straight edge the same way but against the sidecar tire. I use a tape and carpenters square to measure directly behind the rear wheel and again directly in front of the front wheel.
Since I always do it the same way I can evaluate small changes in alignment to see how they affect handling and tire wear, confident that I really did nudge it in or out 1/4"
I measure leanout by sitting on the bike with the front wheel pointed straight ahead and measure straight down from handle bar tips to the ground. This way I can check the leanout with out a second person helping or tying the bike down to compress the shocks.
I like to start with a little leanout while I am in the saddle and as close to zero toe in as I can get. If I have a wobble and I know my mounts, tires etc are good, I add a little toe in. If It pulls hard to the right I add a little leanout. If that doesn't work I might also increase the toe in.
I aim for neutral steering on the roads I travel most at the speeds I travel most with the rig normally loaded. For the riding I most often do these days the sweet spot is about 45mph, empty sidecar,paved country roads with some camber. If I do a freeway trip, particularly with Amy and full luggage aboard, I am apt to add substantially more leanout for that trip.
Take notes. It isn't important to you what I say I have for leanout or toe-in. What matters is what you have, and you want to know what changing it does to your handling and which direction you need to go if you want to put it back or to change the handling more.So write down your measurements and your ride impressions and take the measurements the same way every time.
Originally written by skiri251 on 4/21/2007 5:05 PM
Originally written by RedMenace on 4/21/2007 1:34 AM
If you are interested in taking a sidecar class I have one a month starting in May and running thru October. May is almost full but still has some openings. I think June is filling up too. There is a gentleman from Southern California planning to ride up for the June class who is looking for some one to ride up with him...
Yes!
I will take an early vacation and go with my family.
Do I need to take my rig with me?
Could you email me the details?
It would be great to have you in class!
You can bring your rig or use one of mine, I currently have 4 sidecar rigs for students to use and I am building a trike.
You can find out all about the classes and see photos and videos of previous classes at my website:
http://adventuresidecar.com/training06/training06.htm
Vernon wrote:
>>>snip....Hey Claude,
I didn't realize I stole that drawing from you! It is a very clear illustration and I have used it several times in these types of discussions( I hope you don't mind).,,,snip<<
Vernon, if you look at my post you will see that I stole it from Doug(sidestrider.com)..so no problem here...lol. Also I doubt that Doug B actually drew the thing either.(Who'd you get it from Doug I am sure you are reading this....lol) I did add some verbiage to the right and some lines though. It may have come originally from Unit or possibly Velorex? Dunno.
As far as the fron tfirks go Vernon I do nto disagree with you. I have left stock forks on GS rigs and they were fair. That 21" fron ttire stinks though.
Regarding all of these setting sand where to measure things etc? When it comes down to it we are hard poressed to really compare apples to apples here. Variations such as track width, wheel base etc do come into play. Beleive it or not spokes vs solid wheels can call for differences in set up also. What we are talking about here a means to establish a base line.
Once that is established and can be rechecked accurrately then we can do more adjusting . What is the indicator of a decent setup? LITTLE TO NO PULL WHEN ON A GIVEN ROAD AND DECENT TIRE WEAR. I did say 'setup' and not ultimate handling. If the rig is mismatched there wil be no magic setup that will cure all of it's shortcomngs. Plus , there are very few rigs that cannot use some improments in either handling or setup..they go hand in hand as we begin to move forward. But, a starting place is a necessity to begin the process.
Originally written by RedMenace on 4/21/2007 5:33 PM
It would be great to have you in class!
You can bring your rig or use one of mine, I currently have 4 sidecar rigs for students to use and I am building a trike.
You can find out all about the classes and see photos and videos of previous classes at my website:
http://adventuresidecar.com/training06/training06.htm
Thanks.
I will talk to my superviser Monday and then make a reservation.
I guess it's best to use my own rig but pulling trailer slows down the trip.
Plus I don't think mine can run on a grass. That 4-into-1 header is so low that the rig becomes high-centered. LOL.
Seriously though I need to do something with the front suspension..
It was bottoming really hard.
Originally written by skiri251 on 4/21/2007 7:48 PM
...I will talk to my superviser Monday and then make a reservation.
I guess it's best to use my own rig but pulling trailer slows down the trip.
Plus I don't think mine can run on a grass. That 4-into-1 header is so low that the rig becomes high-centered. LOL.Seriously though I need to do something with the front suspension..
It was bottoming really hard.
If you don't want to trailer or you don't think you want to take your rig off pavement, just use one of mine. That's what they are for. You can practice what you learned on your own rig when you get back home.
Think about putting a lower profile tire on the front- that should allow you to move the fender down, regaining some of the clearance you lost and will reduce the trail a little more too.
Thank You very much, that clears things up for me and I want you to know that i appreciate you taking the time to do so. i just got to thinking and there are so many variables that could come up when doing a set up.
Thanks again,
Ted
Originally written by RedMenace on 4/21/2007 8:02 PM
Think about putting a lower profile tire on the front- that should allow you to move the fender down, regaining some of the clearance you lost and will reduce the trail a little more too.
I have been researching this.
Currently I have Dunlop K70 3.25-19 which has overall diameter of 26.58" (according to Dunlop web page).
I found this:
Bridgestone S11 90/90-19 which has overall diameter of 25.5" (according to Bridgestone web page).
So I gain another half inch in lowering front end.
Do you think it's worth a try?
Another thing is that the front suspension springs are really weak and that causes severe bottoming. Can I get away with inserting spacers or should I buy stronger springs (which I don't know from where)?
Shigeo,
Two things that will make a very noticable difference in handling is to replace the soooooft Honda shocks with higher performance ones and to replace the front fork springs with progressive ones. This will make the rig sit up well and not wallow in the turns or on rougher roads.
Progressive Suspension is where I would go. Ph. 1-866-799-6686
They have vintage bike shocks and springs.
Also replace the fork oil with a heavy duty or racing viscosity oil. HD Type 2 works well "Screamin' Eagle" fork oir is what Harley calls it.
Some have suggested using 25 Wt. but I think that is way too heavy of a viscosity for normal sidecar usage. Very choppy.
Lonnie
Originally written by Hack'n on 4/23/2007 2:29 PM
Shigeo,
Two things that will make a very noticable difference in handling is to replace the soooooft Honda shocks with higher performance ones and to replace the front fork springs with progressive ones. This will make the rig sit up well and not wallow in the turns or on rougher roads.
Progressive Suspension is where I would go. Ph. 1-866-799-6686
They have vintage bike shocks and springs.
Also replace the fork oil with a heavy duty or racing viscosity oil. HD Type 2 works well "Screamin' Eagle" fork oir is what Harley calls it.
Some have suggested using 25 Wt. but I think that is way too heavy of a viscosity for normal sidecar usage. Very choppy.Lonnie
Thank you Lonnie.
I will call that number.
Maybe I should get another set of CB forks on eBay. It usually goes less than 50 dollars a set.
