gnm109 wrote:
>>>A fine point that is covered in the manuals and which is frequently ignored is that the frame must be parallel to the ground. Since the wheel is at 90 degrees to the rear frame tube, that will guarantee that the wheel is absolutely vertical. This is important to prevent unwanted pull, even if lean and toe are correct.
As far as the HD not having separate suspension on the sidecar wheel, I am glad. That prevents it from getting mushy. Also, since the wheel is out a good distance,(54"+/-) the HD sidecar has a nice long moment arm to prevent undue movement on the bike, even if the wheel does move over bumps. <<<
The vertical sidecar wheel thing is seldom discussed but obviously has merit for more than one reason. I know we are onto Harley Sidecars here but this applies to any sidecar. Some of us have experiemented with leaning the sidecar wheel in with varied results..some good and some bad.
Some sidecars can be found with the frame and the sidecar wheel not being perpendicular. Possibly due to quality control issues? Dunno.
As far as sidecar setup goes the figures given by a manual, from an article or anyone online or whatever are, and can only be, suggestions to a good starting place.
I have seen some who have ridden a poorly handling rig for years state that "they all pull to the right that's just the way they are".
That just doesn't have to be the case if they woudl learn what the settings do instead of getting stuck and bogged down on what a printed page may have said.Sometimes when these folks are told that maybe a little tweak here or there may help they are totally close minded and will recite the book. More power to them I guess.
The best setup for any rig is one that produces stability, no pull under the most common conditions ridden in and the best tire wear that can be had with the rubber used. Pretty logical actually.
Rigid sidecar 'suspensions' actually work quite well. This old design has a lot of life in it under the right circucstances. One thing to consider if anyone has a rig that is not a Harley is that with a rigid suspension there will be more direct forces transferred to the motorcycle frame than on a rig that has a suspension. Rigid can also place more stress on the sidecar spindle. The lack of 'mush' ,as gnm describes it, can be a strutural minus to some applications if they are not able to handle the additional stresses induced.
In other words if anyone is contemplating welding their Velorex Suspension up solid you just may end up courting disaster at some point.
There is really no reason for any negative discussion related to Harley Sidecars. They are what they are and are, as mentioned, 'tried and true'. By the same token a suspended sidecar has it's good and bad points too.
Originally written by claude #3563 on 3/26/2008 9:25 PM
gnm109 wrote:
>>>A fine point that is covered in the manuals and which is frequently ignored is that the frame must be parallel to the ground. Since the wheel is at 90 degrees to the rear frame tube, that will guarantee that the wheel is absolutely vertical. This is important to prevent unwanted pull, even if lean and toe are correct.
As far as the HD not having separate suspension on the sidecar wheel, I am glad. That prevents it from getting mushy. Also, since the wheel is out a good distance,(54"+/-) the HD sidecar has a nice long moment arm to prevent undue movement on the bike, even if the wheel does move over bumps. <<<The vertical sidecar wheel thing is seldom discussed but obviously has merit for more than one reason. I know we are onto Harley Sidecars here but this applies to any sidecar. Some of us have experiemented with leaning the sidecar wheel in with varied results..some good and some bad.
Some sidecars can be found with the frame and the sidecar wheel not being perpendicular. Possibly due to quality control issues? Dunno.
As far as sidecar setup goes the figures given by a manual, from an article or anyone online or whatever are, and can only be, suggestions to a good starting place.
I have seen some who have ridden a poorly handling rig for years state that "they all pull to the right that's just the way they are".
That just doesn't have to be the case if they woudl learn what the settings do instead of getting stuck and bogged down on what a printed page may have said.Sometimes when these folks are told that maybe a little tweak here or there may help they are totally close minded and will recite the book. More power to them I guess.The best setup for any rig is one that produces stability, no pull under the most common conditions ridden in and the best tire wear that can be had with the rubber used. Pretty logical actually.
Rigid sidecar 'suspensions' actually work quite well. This old design has a lot of life in it under the right circucstances. One thing to consider if anyone has a rig that is not a Harley is that with a rigid suspension there will be more direct forces transferred to the motorcycle frame than on a rig that has a suspension. Rigid can also place more stress on the sidecar spindle. The lack of 'mush' ,as gnm describes it, can be a strutural minus to some applications if they are not able to handle the additional stresses induced.
In other words if anyone is contemplating welding their Velorex Suspension up solid you just may end up courting disaster at some point.
There is really no reason for any negative discussion related to Harley Sidecars. They are what they are and are, as mentioned, 'tried and true'. By the same token a suspended sidecar has it's good and bad points too.
Very good explanation here. I've tried to remain "sidecar neutral" since many of them will track well with similar settings.
Like you, I wouldn't recommend welding up any suspensions. The ones that have suspensions are engineered to work with specific motorcycles and that's fine.
I'm also not going to hold my breath until HD does another re-design on their hacks. LOL. They are not in the business of making rash changes or, come to think of it, hardly any changes for that matter. Hahahaha.
gnm109 wrote:
I'm also not going to hold my breath until HD does another re-design on their hacks. LOL. They are not in the business of making rash changes or, come to think of it, hardly any changes for that matter. Hahahaha.
I'm guessing that you make that comment in jest as it appears you are an H-D aficionado....however....
....it's unfortunate that most bikers aren't familiar with the technological changes that have taken place underneath all that chrome and sheet metal.
All Harley-Davidsons are now equipped (standard) with a very reliable Delphi EFI and a pretty sophisticated ECM system. The ECM system is capable of nearly unlimited mapping in conjunction with performance upgrades to suit the riders needs and riding style. The days of tuning with a screw driver and pocket full of jets are over. Carbon fiber final drive belts. Sealed wheel bearings. Larger front axles on the FL's. AGM/SVR batteries. Much improved 4 piston calipers and a better disc design and material as well as larger pads. Carbon steel fuel tanks. Security systems. Improved electrical connectors. Maxi-Fuses......
Originally written by ditch on 3/27/2008 9:31 AM
gnm109 wrote:
I'm also not going to hold my breath until HD does another re-design on their hacks. LOL. They are not in the business of making rash changes or, come to think of it, hardly any changes for that matter. Hahahaha.
I'm guessing that you make that comment in jest as it appears you are an H-D aficionado....however....
....it's unfortunate that most bikers aren't familiar with the technological changes that have taken place underneath all that chrome and sheet metal.
All Harley-Davidsons are now equipped (standard) with a very reliable Delphi EFI and a pretty sophisticated ECM system. The ECM system is capable of nearly unlimited mapping in conjunction with performance upgrades to suit the riders needs and riding style. The days of tuning with a screw driver and pocket full of jets are over. Carbon fiber final drive belts. Sealed wheel bearings. Larger front axles on the FL's. AGM/SVR batteries. Much improved 4 piston calipers and a better disc design and material as well as larger pads. Carbon steel fuel tanks. Security systems. Improved electrical connectors. Maxi-Fuses......
Oh, sorry. I was talking about sidecars. I'm well aware of the many changes HD has done on their bikes.
The sidecars, on the other hand, are about the same as they were. They did redesign the frame a bit in 1998 and add a disc brake. The mounts are similar all the way back to the 80's and the fiberglass tub is about the same to the 60's. That doesn't mean that I don't love them dearly.
Because I do love them so much, I've been baffled down through the years about how HD holds back on sellng sidecars. They do virtually no advertising. They have few accessories and the dealer sales knowledge and information is also virtually non-existant. To their credit, however, they are still beautifully built and they will actually sell you one if you really, really want one, so all is well.
I don't wish to criticize them too severely though. They seem to know where they're going and presumably they have done some marketing research.
As to your statement that "The days of tuning with a screw driver and pocket full of jets are over.", that's certainly true. I sorta miss that period, though. I know lots of others who do as well.
We have now reached the point in time where we can't use a srewdriver and we are forced to rely on the dealer when something goes wrong at least for some of the issues that come up. In a way, that sort of makes me sad.
But, as I said, I was talking about sidecars. LOL
I'm also dismayed at the lack of any real marketing of the sidecar by H-D.
I don't know where H-D is as far as the proposed takeover of Lehman. It's possible that getting into the trike business could re-ignite the sidecar business as well.
I would like to see The Motor Company at least recognize their roots, which for the most part early on were combinations. In 1918 Harley offered 13 different sidecar models, not counting military combos involved in WWI. Through most of the 1920s roughly 80% of total sales were outfits.
At least bring the Goulding Rocket back!!!!!
Ditch I am with you in spirit and also understand gmn109's thoughts on lack of screwdrivers...lol. The sad thing IMHO is that the motorcompany is ,as are many other marques, today focused on a big corportate business structures and profit and loss statments over and above being motorcycle enthusiats as was more common in years past. No, again, this is not just Harley. Possibly this is a necissity to survive but the attitude it has birthed among many dealers is far far distant from what it should be.
Try getting a dealership to work on a Pan sometime and see what happens. As far as that goes take an Airhead to some BMW dealers and one can be let down also. I won't ramble on this but it is a sore point.
Sorry for getting off topic.
Claude
I only read your first post not any reply.
A lean IN does make sence on a rig where you have no wheel suspension on the sidecar but on the bike, and as I heard HD still sell such antique designs.
Regards
Sven Peter
I kinda miss the days when the crew at the Harley shop rode to work and had their Hogs parked outside and the Dealerships weren't "Lifestyle" (lol) Mega stores with "Toys R' Us" merchandise and very little bike savvy.
Claude mentioned, "Try to get them to work on a PAN". Hell, Try to get them to work on an EVO.
Lonnie
Originally written by Peter Pan on 3/27/2008 6:26 PM
I only read your first post not any reply.
A lean IN does make sence on a rig where you have no wheel suspension on the sidecar but on the bike, and as I heard HD still sell such antique designs.
Regards
Sven Peter
Please explain. As far as I can tell, there would be little difference regarding the effect of lean angle with or without suspension on the sidecar frame. Do you have scientific data? Or is this merely a guess on your part? In any case, we were talking about Harley sidecar specifications as stated in their manual. Those may or may not be applicable to some European design.
Oh, and do you mean the Harley sidecar design is antique as in Tiffany lamps, the Crown Jewels of England, a Faberge Jeweled egg, or do you mean obsolete, unworkable, and utterly lacking value for modern usage?
Originally written by Hack'n on 3/28/2008 12:20 PM
I kinda miss the days when the crew at the Harley shop rode to work and had their Hogs parked outside and the Dealerships weren't "Lifestyle" (lol) Mega stores with "Toys R' Us" merchandise and very little bike savvy.
Claude mentioned, "Try to get them to work on a PAN". Hell, Try to get them to work on an EVO.Lonnie
Very true. The last Pan was what, 1964? The last Evo was what, 1999? It's getting up close to 10 years on Evos and more for the others. Parts are mainly in the aftermarket by now. Also, the turnover in technicians ensures that few will have any training on the old machines. Lots of them were born after 1980. I'm not making excuses for the dealers.....just sayin'. I also think that most people still riding a ten or more year old bike will be doing a lot of their own work.
Try getting your 1988 to 1999 Goldwing worked on at a Honda dealer without some laughter from the service manager. LOL
Hello Geylord,
you asked: >Please explain. As far as I can tell, there would be little difference regarding the effect of lean angle with or without suspension on the sidecar frame. Do you have scientific data? the whole assemble will lean to the left side (in non british countries). How much depends mainly on drivers weight and softness of suspension.
So in this case a leaning inwards, as in the original post mentioned, does make a lot of sence, Because it counterbalances the sinking into the suspension.
Scientific data? => No Sir! That is just pure common sence.
How much lean needs a certain bike into what direction depends on so many factors and situations that at the end it allways comes out to eye balling and try and error. That's the reason why in this forum so often we talk about electrical and manual tilt units. (Claude made uncountable excellent explanations about this topic all over the forums discutions)
To the rest of your comment: I shut my mouth, I never had been a friend of Harleys,,,,,(allthought there is a never vanishing idea of marrying an HD engine with Ducati Desmodromic valve train and a raceing frame..., but that are daydreams)..., but ain't an enemy neither. Everybody has the right to choose his ride and tastes are tastes.
I myself was once preaty close to buy a Vincent Black Shadow, doesn't that have much more style?
Have a nice weekend.
Sven Peter
Originally written by Peter Pan on 3/28/2008 5:15 PM
Hello Geylord,
you asked: >Please explain. As far as I can tell, there would be little difference regarding the effect of lean angle with or without suspension on the sidecar frame. Do you have scientific data? the whole assemble will lean to the left side (in non british countries). How much depends mainly on drivers weight and softness of suspension.
So in this case a leaning inwards, as in the original post mentioned, does make a lot of sence, Because it counterbalances the sinking into the suspension.Scientific data? => No Sir! That is just pure common sence!
How much lean needs a certain bike into what direction depends on so many factors and situations that at the end it allways comes out to eye balling and try and error. That's the reason why in this forum so often we talk about electrical and manual tilt units. (Claude made uncountable excellent explanations all over the forums discutions)To the rest of your comment I shut my mouth, I never had been a friend of harleys,,,,,(allthought there is an idea of marrying an HD engine with Ducati Desmodromic valve train and a raceing frame..., but that are daydreams)..., but ain't an enemy neither. Everybody has the right to choose his ride and tastes are tastes.
I myself was once preaty close to buy a Vincent Black Shadow, doesn't that have much more style?
Have a nice weekend.
Sven PeterBest regards
Sven Peter
I'm not convinced by your "common sense" explanation. There are too many variables.
Yep...Lot's of variables....Lot's of adjustment room too.... and H-D set ups can be adjusted very quickly.
Like I said earlier, a very competent and experienced mechanic (I have a hard time using "technician") set my rig up....and then after a few weeks of getting used to it, adjusted it to the best set up for ME based on my feedback....which is just a wee bit of lean out.
I guess that a guy 100 lbs. heavier than me might set up an identical rig quite differently.
I'm curious as to how quickly, and easily non H-D rigs are adjusted.
Originally written by ditch on 3/28/2008 7:02 PM
Yep...Lot's of variables....Lot's of adjustment room too.... and H-D set ups can be adjusted very quickly.
Like I said earlier, a very competent and experienced mechanic (I have a hard time using "technician") set my rig up....and then after a few weeks of getting used to it, adjusted it to the best set up for ME based on my feedback....which is just a wee bit of lean out.I guess that a guy 100 lbs. heavier than me might set up an identical rig quite differently.
I'm curious as to how quickly, and easily non H-D rigs are adjusted.
I really don't know much about other sidecars. Once your HD is set up, you really shoudn't need to change it.
I've always done my own setups. This is the third HD rig I've had since 1985. Once I installed the present one it took only a half turn on the rear standoff adjuster to bring it in. The later ones are very easy to adjust due to the double threads on the threaded joints.
I have worked on Harley rigs with Harley sidecars and Harley rigs with other sidecars but mostly on various other rigs. We figured out that we setup 29 sidecar rigs in 2007. Some have done many more than that. Lonnie?
Some rigs are easily adjusted and some not. It all depends on the mouting system and how well it was initially thought out.
Harley sidecar rigs are not too bad as the lack of a sidecar suspension takes one more varaible out of the deal.
When a passnger is added to a Harley / Harley sidecar outfit the rig's setup and handling do not change the same way as on a more conventinal suspended sidecar. This is due to no sidecar suspension being compressed. Softly sprung sidecars are affected more than ones with a more stiff suspension. Same holds true on the bike side to a certain degree (even with harley / harley rigs). Rigs with swaybars are a little diferent also as th eaction of the swaybar adds to the way adjustments are working. It is best to unhook th eswaybar until adjustments are made..
