Anyway of knowing if a particular sidecar and bike were matched at the factory? I am looking at a 1966 outfit, I know that both units sport 66 serial numbers, but don't know if they came from the factory together or were blended after. Any knowledge on this forum?
Thanks in advance.
I don't know so I can't answer your question but if I was to bet money either way, my money would go on the post-factory mount. If it was done by a reputable, knowledgeable rigger, that's not a bad thing...
From everything I've heard from HD Dealers and guys who should know, ALL installations are done after the bikes and sidecars leave the factory. They might have been ordered as a pair but even if you do that, the installation is made at the dealer. Is Denny Zengre out there? Denny, what's the fact of the matter?
Al Olme - 12/30/2009 12:16 PM
From everything I've heard from HD Dealers and guys who should know, ALL installations are done after the bikes and sidecars leave the factory. They might have been ordered as a pair but even if you do that, the installation is made at the dealer. Is Denny Zengre out there? Denny, what's the fact of the matter?
I think you are right Al but Denny is da man who woudl certainly confiem this. Denny Denny are you oput there.....???? No 'g' in last name I think...coudl be wrong of course.
As I have understood it from a few dealers,the motorcycle and sidecar that were purchased together were always assembled and installed at the dealership for the customer.
I was also told by another person that was a Harley Davidson dealer in the 50's and 60's that there is corresponding paper work kept at the factory for documenting what was ordered for the motorcycle and for the sidecar at the time they were built including what color they were in this paper work would be the serial numbers for the motorcycle and sidecar,as an example the sidecar may have been ordered with the spare tire and mounting bracket or the stainless steel trim work for the body the 1966 body should be steel with this motorcycle as I recall they were made untill 1967.
There is an after market company L&W in Pennsylvania that makes the steel HD bodys that are pretty darn close to the originals it wouldn't hurt to look the sidecar body over a little better.
I can't remember exactly where but there should be a number tag inside of the sidecar body along the floor infront of the seat I think.
I have also spoke to some people that say there is a way to contact the factory in a way to research what was ordered at that time by submitting the serial numbers when people are trying to restore the motorcycle to original in an effort to know the color and what was ordered with it.
I remembered something that I had heard a long time agi. An FL Harley-Davidson ordered and sold with a sidecar from the factory with a sidecar will have a designator placed in the VIN number showing that it was sold as a package.
I looked for something on the internet to show this and without too much trouble I found the below link:
http://www.harley-performance.com/harley-vin.html
If you scroll down a bit in the link, you'll see a chart covering VIN model designators for 1982-2002. While data is not shown for any later years, it does show that at least between 1982 and 2002 (Late Shovelhead to early Twin Cam era) a VIN number with the letters "DE" for the fifth and sixth digits will be an FLHTCU (Ultra) that was shipped with a matching sidecar.
For example: 1H11DEK11GY123456 would be an FLHTC (Classic) sold with a sidecar.
IIRC, from my deep dark past, LOL, I think it's always been that way with Harley-Davidson and probably still is. The reason that it would be designated in this manner is simple: A bike set up for sidecar is different from a standard touring bike since it has the sidecar connection package installed at the factory. That is, mounts, clutch cable, electrical cables, brake cylinder, pedal, master cylinder, hose and reservoir changes, steering damper, right side sidecar lower, and digital rollover switch adapter installed and toggled to sidecar usage. It's a matter of keeping track of the orignal build configuration for warranty and later maintenance purposes. Thus, with the VIN designator, any dealer would be able to tell the original configuratioin of the bike.
It works nicely in another way, as well. When I ordered my 2007 TLE sidecar in October, 2006, the dealer took down my VIN number and entered it on the original order blank. In that way, when the sidecar was built, they matched the factory Vivid Black paint and double silver stripe to my 2004 Ultra. It also gave Harley-Davidson the information needed to choose the proper connection kit and matching wheel to pack in the shipping crate. (2004 FLHTCUI to 2007 TLE with 2004 color package.) The sidecar also came with a 2005 Owner's Manual since the particular shade of silver and width of stripes on the sidecar were only used on 2004 and 2005 models.
Thus, when I picked up the sidecar in the crate at the Harley dealer, it was complete down to the last lock washer and I totally enjoyed installing and setting it up myself. A very nice Christmas package, only a week and a half late. LOL.
To address the original question, I don't know what the designators might be as far back as 1966 but the fact that both the bike and the sidecar are dated 1966 would be strong evidence that they came together since not too many rigs stay together for 44 years. The odds that a bike that old would be later matched with the same year sidecar are rather unlikely unless they came together.
That's my story and I'm stickin' to it. 🙂
to complicate this just a tiny bit
a very few combinations have matching vins - i dont know how many but its very very few
there are FG DE DH that all indicate bike sold with sidecar
and there are codes - that i cant lay my hands on just now - that indicate sidecar sold with bike.
from what i can tell those combinations and those codes are fading away.
when bikes could be ordered with three speed with reverse, adjustable tree, sidecar gearing - it was a bigger deal
if i ever do get another new bike [very unlikely unless i hit the lottery] ill try and order a pair.
what IS really sad is when somebody separates a vin matched pair - ive seen it done - just a shame.
to
timo482 - 12/31/2009 7:32 PM
to complicate this just a tiny bit
a very few combinations have matching vins - i dont know how many but its very very few
there are FG DE DH that all indicate bike sold with sidecar
and there are codes - that i cant lay my hands on just now - that indicate sidecar sold with bike.
from what i can tell those combinations and those codes are fading away.
when bikes could be ordered with three speed with reverse, adjustable tree, sidecar gearing - it was a bigger deal
if i ever do get another new bike [very unlikely unless i hit the lottery] ill try and order a pair.
what IS really sad is when somebody separates a vin matched pair - ive seen it done - just a shame.
to
There's no reason why you couldn't order a matching pair. It would probably have to be a deal at full MSRP right now. Harley is having a difficult time these days. Just in my area, four dealers have closed in the past year, two this month. Sales are down 60%. It's really, really bad.
Yes, I neglected to mention that there were two other sidecar codes on that chart that I provided, FG (Ultra) and DH, (Shrine). Good old Harley-Davidson and their alphabet soup designations.
Let's hope that one of use hits the lottery, although in my case, it's unlikely since I, like many others, no longer play. In California you hardly ever even hear about a winner anymore unless someone forgets to cash in a winning ticket.
That being the case, I was forced, like you I'm sure, to get my rig the old-fashioned way. I earned it by working. LOL.
for me keeping what i have is going to be a long slog......
i went from 57k per year with a wife making 40k per year to me making 12k and she made 2k
still have the house and bike - just and one of the kids moved back in and pays rent.
the grand kids make it all ok...
to
timo482 - 12/31/2009 9:22 PM
for me keeping what i have is going to be a long slog......
i went from 57k per year with a wife making 40k per year to me making 12k and she made 2k
still have the house and bike - just and one of the kids moved back in and pays rent.
the grand kids make it all ok...
to
Yeah, me too. I have five grandchldren and I anjoy them as well. Incomes, jobs, retirements and futures are in jeapordy right now. I hope the economic conditions imprive. I don't like to see anyone have hardship,
Keep smiling and have a good New Year! 🙂
64duo - 12/29/2009 11:10 PM Anyway of knowing if a particular sidecar and bike were matched at the factory? I am looking at a 1966 outfit, I know that both units sport 66 serial numbers, but don't know if they came from the factory together or were blended after. Any knowledge on this forum? Thanks in advance.
64duo,
Judging by your screen name that being the 2nd last year of the panhead motor and what you are considering purchasing the 66 sidecar rig first year of the generator shovelhead motor I am guessing you are interested in older bikes.
A few things I would look for and ask the owner, does the seller have any paperwork to back this up they may not but doesn't hurt to ask? Sometimes the older bikes may have been sold only a couple of times and the previous owners may know each other this would be another way to research it, Another thing would be asking if it is serviced at a dealer if so talk to them to see what they may know about the set up sometimes they know more about the older bikes and who owned it before the current owner, Is the bike and sidecar suppose to be an original paint combination or an older repaint,if so look for paint chips and if there are any look for different color paints on the sidecar and motorcycle that it self would tell me something about the possiable history of the bike and sidecar it is possiable that the current owner bought it blindly and really doesn't know anything except what they were told when they bought it, Does the frame of the bike and sidecar frame both have the same appearance and ageing same thing to look for with any trim work on the bike and sidecar? Sometimes the body parts are the only thing to get repainted and the person may not want to go through the work of completly stripping the bike and sidecar down for the frames to be painted ,one frame or another may look aged a bit more.
To be honest about it unless they are advertising it as a factory combo and wanting real large and unreasonable dollar$ for it 😉 this only tells me that possiably someone may have wanted a sidecar later in 1966 after the bike was purchased or found one to match the bike. As long as the set up tracks well and and the bike runs good I don't see anything wrong with it. I am currently working on a 1930 VL and it will have a sidecar attached to it I know where there are 2 - 1930 frames for sale ( one is in rough shape and he wants more for it than the other 30 frame) and the person I mentioned in my earlier post at L&W body also makes the VL sidecar bodys to I also know where there is a complete 1931 sidecar with all mounts.......should I decide to go that route 🙂
If you like what you see and it's reasonably priced buy it and enjoy it,Happy New Year!
still with a 66 if it was a matched pair it would always have the adjustable tree
and in 66 a matched pair would always have sidecar gearing and "probably" have reverse.
all those things could be added to a standard bike - however 3 speed with reverse were so rare even then that if you have a bike with reverse it came with a sidecar. those are the ones that when you find them solo you just have to wonder how and why they got split - the reverse trans was set up for lots of pull and near zero top end.
the shift gate on the tank has a R where all the rest of the bikes have a 1... that part only came on a matched pair or a bike ordered to go with a existing sidecar, so if you have a reverse bike with a raked tree and a older sidecar - it is possible the bike was ordered to go with that sidecar.
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timo482 - 1/1/2010 7:28 AM
still with a 66 if it was a matched pair it would always have the adjustable tree
and in 66 a matched pair would always have sidecar gearing and "probably" have reverse.
all those things could be added to a standard bike - however 3 speed with reverse were so rare even then that if you have a bike with reverse it came with a sidecar. those are the ones that when you find them solo you just have to wonder how and why they got split - the reverse trans was set up for lots of pull and near zero top end.
the shift gate on the tank has a R where all the rest of the bikes have a 1... that part only came on a matched pair or a bike ordered to go with a existing sidecar, so if you have a reverse bike with a raked tree and a older sidecar - it is possible the bike was ordered to go with that sidecar.
to
Correct. It would have had those items you mention from the factory. I once had a 1941 E (low compression) Knucklehead that had a blown engine. The rear cylinder had exploded and the rear of the motor was all gone. The frame had dents in the rear downtube from the hammering of the connecting rod when the piston broke. I parted it out and used the 3 and reverse on my 1947 EL because I wanted only three speeds. They were popular due to the nice second gear. I'm not sure what you mean by near-zero top end unless you are talking about the fact that an original sidecar machine would have had something like a 20 or 21 tooth front sprocket to lower the gearing. The 3, 4, and 5 speed transmissions in Harleys, as you know, are all direct drive in high gear.
A sidecar machine after 1949 would always have had the adjustable triple trees. I rode 1950's Panheads at an agency in Chicago when I was but a mere child. They were factory jobs - 3 & R with matching shifter gate, adjustable trees, low gearing and a large commercial box for holding blueprints and packages.
I alwasys liked HD rigs ever since because of that experience. There are probably better rigs but I'm a Harley fan to this day.
I used to have a 64 duo, before back surgery forced me to sell. Now I need electric start and stay as vintage as I can.
The 66 offered is on ebay, (search 1966 Harley #330390390346 ) BIN $14k, no adjustible tree, no reverse. Been repainted. The current owner has had it a couple years and has no history. It looks reasonable. Just was hoping to find out if it was really a pair or a nice after the fact put together.
64duo - 1/1/2010 8:34 AM
I used to have a 64 duo, before back surgery forced me to sell. Now I need electric start and stay as vintage as I can.
The 66 offered is on ebay, (search 1966 Harley #330390390346 ) BIN $14k, no adjustible tree, no reverse. Been repainted. The current owner has had it a couple years and has no history. It looks reasonable. Just was hoping to find out if it was really a pair or a nice after the fact put together.
I would have to say that it is not a factory rig unless is was havily modified later on. A factory rig would have had a hand shift with three and reverse. He doesn't say whether the bike has adjustable triple trees but that would obviosly have been on a factory rig in that year. While this machine has the "mousetrap" clutch assist, it also has a foot shift for a straight four speed.
It's likely that the fact that the bike and sidecar are the same year is a coincidence. The sidecar might have been added to a solo bike at the dealer back in 1966, as well.
It's a nice-looking rig though, but a bit pricey. The present motorcycle market is quite low on used bikes. That bike is probably worth around $5,000 with another $3-4K for the sidecar. Bidding is presently aroud $10K and it hasn't met the reserve yet to it's anyone's guess whether it will meet reserve or not.
Another issue is what you might want to use such a rig for. I had a 1982 Shovelhead with a Harley sidecar and, while it looked nice and handled well, its performance on the freeway was sorely lacking due to the relatively low power. Even loving Harleys as I do, I would want more power in a rig.
Furthermore, adding cubic inches and cams to get more power is a questionable issue for a heavy sidecar rig where low speed torque is king. Most any modification to add power (compression or cams, etc.) will also raise the torque point above where it is useful for most sidecar work. Additionally, Shovelheads have the dreaded hemispherical combustion chamber which, on modern fuels, are prone to overheating and pre-igniotion, detonation, spark knock or pinging. (pick your favotire term.) LOL.
