I'm new to side car and set-up, as I write this my dealer is mounting a '07 TLE for me. I've seen where a Bank Angle Senor Kit is sold by the Factory, but no one can tell me what it does or if needed?
The Bank Angle Sensor kit will shut the motor off in case of a rollover but allows a sidecar equipped bike to turn sharply. Some say without it the bike ignition may shut off during an extreme turn situation. Harleys already have a (mercury?) tipover shutoff switch. This (expensive) unit must replace it.
I've had several Harleys with Harley sidecars and other models. Only one had the added Bank Angle Switch. In many rough situations I've never had the switch function shut the power off.
My Current FLHX/Liberty rig does not have one and I don't plan on adding one.
If it's upside down it won't go anywhere anyway, with or without the switch kit.
Lonnie
Lonnie,
Thanks, I have a FLHTC, working with my Parts guys at the Dealer, he felt the same, just good to hear this from someone else, as they don't get that many coming through. If the bike was tipped to that point with car on it, that was the least of my problems. He told me the other question we will have to wait and see if the TSM will work, if that is the only issue looks like we are good to go.
At one point in going though this suite, I thought I saw someone uploaded the Harley Side Car manual, any idea what Forum and where that is posted?
Thanks again
Earl
Florida
It may have been pulled since it is copywrited,
They may be obtained on eBay or from your HD dealer for about $60.00.
p/n is 99485-XX (XX is the last two numbers of the year Manual you want.
Lonnie
As mentioned above, the HD P/N 88115-03 Rollover Switch Kit was designed to shut the engine off in the event of a complete rollover. This would help to prevent a fire to a certain extent, or at least that's the theory. It interconnects to the main cable from the ECM (Engine Control Module) to the TSM TSSM. (Turn Signal Module or Turn Signal Security Module) and sits right over the battery.
Normally, the TSM/TSSM will shut the engine off when the bike is running and angles over more than 45 degrees, for example in a fall-over or crash. This is accomplished with a simple electro-mechanical pendulum inside of the TSM/TSSM.
While it's unlikely that enough force could be exerted on a sidecar in a right turn, without the Rollover Switch an extremely hard left turn could certainly cause a shut down. This is for US machines with the sidecar on the right, of course.
When the switch first came out, there was a process in 2003 only where the turn signals could be used to toggle the ECM so that the Rollover Switch could be energized. By 2004, they had changed both the ECM and the TSSM so that it required use of the Digital Technician laptop at the dealer to do this. Kindly, they usually only charge you a half hour labor to make the change either way. That's really nice of them.
My take on it is that it's a nice fix for a non-existant problem. If the sidecar rider operates the sidecar in a safe manner, I doubt that the switch is needed. Obviously, HD did this to cover liability that might arise in a complete rollover. Unfortunately, they are aware that not everyone operates their rig safely. Occasionally there is a wreck with a rollover. In such a situation, I think that engine shutdown would be one of the smaller problems, however.
Part of the thinking behind this issue probably came about when all of the big FL's began to come out with fuel injection as a standard feature. My guess is that a carbureted engine would be more likely to choke out if inverted whereas a fuel-injected bike with no float bowl and a pressurized fuel system would tend to keep running, at least for a while longer.
It's my understanding that the new HD Trike is set to shut the engine off on a rollover from the factory since obviously, the trikes won't be leaning over on an angle. I rode one of them a couple of months back for a demo ride. They are nice but I won't be buying a $35,000 vehicle with fewer than four wheels and no air conditioning. LOL.
By the way, other big bikes have bank angle sensors. BMW tourers and Honda Goldwings to name two. Likely there are many others as well.
Happy Trails to all. 🙂
Earl - 1/6/2011 1:27 PM
Lonnie,
Thanks, I have a FLHTC, working with my Parts guys at the Dealer, he felt the same, just good to hear this from someone else, as they don't get that many coming through. If the bike was tipped to that point with car on it, that was the least of my problems. He told me the other question we will have to wait and see if the TSM will work, if that is the only issue looks like we are good to go.
At one point in going though this suite, I thought I saw someone uploaded the Harley Side Car manual, any idea what Forum and where that is posted?
Thanks again
Earl
Florida
Just to address one point in your post here. The issue is not leaning with the sidecar. It's centrifugal force on the TSSM pendulum that can shut the engine down in an extremely fast turn. If this happened on a very sharp, unexpected mountain turn, the results could be disastrous. This could happen with all three wheels on the road.
Like I mentioned in my other response, safe operation of the sidecar at reasonable speeds is always the best policy.
im sure the bank angle sensor has to do with a few things:
liability and the fact that a efi bike with a full tank just might keep running...
having the engine shut off in a tight turn - obviously with a empty sidecar this is unlikely - but with a person in the hack it is possible to turn a lot tighter than empty
having the engine die at just the right time could be a big deal
it only has to happen ONCE - the second time will likely be to a new alive owner
up till this year harley was the only oem making them, im highly inclined to follow the manual & install all the mounts as shown.
still i put a raked tree on for easier steering - and that alone makes the likelihood of turning tight enough to shut down the engine higher
hmmmm
to each there own - its your bike do what you want...
that said,
to the guy i saw this summer who skipped the brake rez kit and just installed one half of the front lower mount - go for it - just dont ride in front of me & dont tell me its hd's fault if your frame breaks.
to
timo482 - 1/7/2011 11:27 PM
im sure the bank angle sensor has to do with a few things:
liability and the fact that a efi bike with a full tank just might keep running...
having the engine shut off in a tight turn - obviously with a empty sidecar this is unlikely - but with a person in the hack it is possible to turn a lot tighter than empty
having the engine die at just the right time could be a big deal
it only has to happen ONCE - the second time will likely be to a new alive owner
up till this year harley was the only oem making them, im highly inclined to follow the manual & install all the mounts as shown.
still i put a raked tree on for easier steering - and that alone makes the likelihood of turning tight enough to shut down the engine higher
hmmmm
to each there own - its your bike do what you want...
that said,
to the guy i saw this summer who skipped the brake rez kit and just installed one half of the front lower mount - go for it - just dont ride in front of me & dont tell me its hd's fault if your frame breaks.
to
All good points you make here.
The fellow who installed only half of the mount is not really very bright. That could easily break the frame at the right downtube. The lower front HD mount is a very nice, strong unit. It has to have both halves, however with the tiebar inbetween to spread the forces and stiffen the frame at that point.
ive seen some unbeliveable things
im sure others have too
99% of them are due to "cheap"
folks have a bike that cost 20k new - at least 10k used, a sidecar that was 9k new and at least 3.5k used
and they cheap out on the mount kit that costs 1200 & risk there life and mine
with a hd hd - follow the manual
with all the others - follow the manual
its really simple
but if somebody wants to run around with a moving disaster........
Gaylord's argument of the fuel injection staying longer alive is here the only reasonable argument in favour for to use such a "tip over kill switch".
As all my bikes were/are carburated and in practically all situations I went into a deep ditch or tipped over, I normally felt lucky when the engine stayed running!
Otherwise I would not have been able to come out again or would have sunk the rig into a ditch or hit a car.
Keep the standard kill switch on the handle bar in working order and forget about an automatic tip over switch. If you want install a kill switch with a wrist rope for trial or motocross riding that is a good idea for the case a branch sweeps you off the seat. This eventually would help too for the person who continues riding a rig allthough he has risk of a heart attack.
A 2 cent comment, where I should be staying behind the mill and crank out a valve adapter...
Happy new year
Sven
timo482 - 1/8/2011 9:00 AM
ive seen some unbeliveable things
im sure others have too
99% of them are due to "cheap"
folks have a bike that cost 20k new - at least 10k used, a sidecar that was 9k new and at least 3.5k used
and they cheap out on the mount kit that costs 1200 & risk there life and mine
with a hd hd - follow the manual
with all the others - follow the manual
its really simple
but if somebody wants to run around with a moving disaster........
Safety is really a state of mind. I firmly believe that it's possible to ride a motorcycle eiher solo or with a sidecar in a safe manner at a reasonable speed and never have an accident. It requires the proper mindset, however. One needs to think ahead and plan your moves.
Keeping up with solos on a group ride can be a negative issue too. It can lead to excessive speed at times. That is, excessive speed for a sidecar in a given situation.
The mindset extends to the setup of the machine. I rode many, many enduros, Hare and Hounds and Scrambles when I was but a mere child. I learned how to keep a motorcycle running and upright. It takes good tools, an understanding of the forces involved and full-time awareness.
For that reason, I often don't have as much fun as some others who ride motorcycles. I'm always on the lookout.
As an example, I used to go on group rides with a certain motorcycle group that has the same name as a large porcine farm animal. It's also sponsored by a large American motorcycle company that is famous for building V-twin bikes and is more than 100 years old. Here's a hint, it's not Polaris/Victory but I don't want to name them.
Anyway, that group gives new riders a free one year membership into the "group". Those new riders go out on their new rides and almost invariably they are unskilled and are riding too fast.
For a period of about three years back in the early 1990' when I was a member, there was at least one accident or incident with a new rider on each group ride. Some folks would slide out on gravel, ride off the road, hit cars, have the bike fall over when parking, start the bike in gear and take out other bikes, you name it, the list goes on and on. Oh yeah, they were always moving in a grop at more than 75 mph each and every time that they went out.
I finally realized that, with my sidecar, I had to get away from the danger created by those folks so I quit going around and began to ride alone or with my spouse in the sidecar so I could watch the scenery.
So, I guess you could say that safety is a state of mind but there I go, repeating myselff again. (that's not good English is it....repeating one's self again?)
Peter Pan - 1/8/2011 9:12 AM
Gaylord's argument of the fuel injection staying longer alive is here the only reasonable argument in favour for to use such a "tip over kill switch".
As all my bikes were/are carburated and in practically all situations I went into a deep ditch or tipped over, I normally felt lucky when the engine stayed running!
Otherwise I would not have been able to come out again or would have sunk the rig into a ditch or hit a car.Keep the standard kill switch on the handle bar in working order and forget about an automatic tip over switch. If you want install a kill switch with a wrist rope for trial or motocross riding that is a good idea for the case a branch sweeps you off the seat. This eventually would help too for the person who continues riding a rig allthough he has risk of a heart attack.
A 2 cent comment, where I should be staying behind the mill and crank out a valve adapter...
Happy new year
Sven
Hi Sven! Your comment is a good one. The roll over sensor is sort of a "belt and suspenders idea". While it's a good idea, safe operation of the sidecar will render it unnecessary.
Does the rollover sensor also shut the fuel pump off? While an engine may stay running in an inverted state, the forces involved may stall it. Without the rollover switch the fuel pump may keep running with spillage over the exhaust. Carburated units used a vacuum valve and gravity to move fuel out of the fuel tank, injector fuel systems use a pump with fuel pressures around 50-60psi, which could spray all over. Granted our litigious may account for the need and development of this technology, the list price for the rollover swith is $115, considering the cost of the sidecar and installation, it's not that much, and may provide a little piece of mind, not to mention safety.
bluehdmc - 1/8/2011 2:32 PM
Does the rollover sensor also shut the fuel pump off? While an engine may stay running in an inverted state, the forces involved may stall it. Without the rollover switch the fuel pump may keep running with spillage over the exhaust. Carburated units used a vacuum valve and gravity to move fuel out of the fuel tank, injector fuel systems use a pump with fuel pressures around 50-60psi, which could spray all over. Granted our litigious may account for the need and development of this technology, the list price for the rollover swith is $115, considering the cost of the sidecar and installation, it's not that much, and may provide a little piece of mind, not to mention safety.
Yes, the rollover switch terminates all power to the relays controlling the ignition, fuel pump and lights through the ECM and TSSM.
Carbureted machines have a vacuum controlled fuel tap. When the carbureted engine starts, vacuum opens the fuel petcock. When the engine stops, loss of vacuum shuts the tap. Fuel is provided to the engine by gravity.
The rollover is about $115 as you say. It comes in the crate when you buy a new sidecar. It's also provided with any sidecar conection kit after 2003.
It wouldn't be all that difficult to make a rollover protection device for some brand other than Harley-Davidson. A mercury switch with a relay or two to control ignition and also fuel pump if EFI and you would have the same basic thing as the HD system.
some of the folks are thinking sort of backwords on the hd rollover switch
ALL recent dot approved bikes have a rollover switch - ALL of them, ALL makes, lay them down on there sides and they stop running, the electronics do the stopping, not fuel
the issue with a hd switch is that the factory switch on a bagger assumes that baggers never tilt more than 35 deg - so when it gets to 35 deg over the elect shuts off - [note that the hard parts of the frame hit the ground at 30 deg with a empty bike] keep the angle in mind
hd sidecar rigs prior to the twin cams really wont run more than 60 something loaded - in the era of 55mph speed limits, who cared. my 77 and my 79 would keep up with traffic and drove really nice.
new twin cams will go about 90. ive had mine to 90 - i can set the cruise control at 80 and it will hold - two up on the freeway - thats moving
with a passenger it IS possible to get the roll over switch that is in ALLLLLLLL hd bikes to trip in a corner loaded and shut off the power - though thank goodness its unlikely, very unlikely - it is possible.
so this switch that we are talking about turns the factory 35deg switch OFF and replaces it with a switch that only activates upside down
the idea is to keep the engine running if the rubber is down at all times.
putting a sidecar, ANY sidecar on a hd that has enough power to go 90 with the sidecar "may" cause the engine to shut off every so often... so it may be a good idea to spend the 115 bux and install the thing.
bikes newer than 11 will probably have no provision for the thing - but the trikes DO - in the future the plan will be to install trike parts on the bike to make it work right.
what would be the REALLY neat trick is to install a trike frame in a bike for sidecar use - all heavier tubing.
later
to
