Hey there,
I have a question about preventing my sidecar mounts from rusting up, rusting together...
When I tried to pull the sliding arms out of my sidecar frame, I practically needed a slide hammer to get them to come out. What I found is that the paint had been scratched off while the car was being set up, and rust had formed between the arms and tubes.
This was true for the HitchHiker I was taking off, as well as the Escort I just bought to mount in its place.
My question is: Would using something like an anti-seize paste on the arms to give them a coating to try to stop that from happening make them slip in the mounts? Not talking grease, of course... This is a fine metalic flake (usually a copper/aluminum blend) compound used on screw threads and some tight slip fits to prevent galling/seizing/corrosion.
The other thing I noticed, seems like everyone mounts their diagonal arms with the threaded portion at the top. When I disassembled the arms on the new Escort to dress the threads with anti-seize I actually found water accumulated in the bottom of the tube that had migrated down past the threads while the unit had either been sitting or riding in the rain.
Would there really be any problem with mounting the diagonal braces with the threads at the bottom to keep the water from running down in like this again? Maybe with a mountain-bike intertube slipped over to protect the threads from road debris/etc...
How have others dealt with the tendancy of the sliding mounts to scratch and rust inside of the clamped area?
Thanks!
Most threaded struts can be mounted either way unless a curved one that is needed for clearance issues.
Greasing or other coating applications on the sliding mounts increase the propensity for slippage. Good for threaded portions of a strut though.
Silicone sealant can also be used at the entry or joints of slip tubes and threaded struts to deter corrosion. Gaiters can help somewhat but are subject to leakage.
The protective coatings on the inside of the slip tubes are minimal at best and just installation will cause spalls or scrapes in the film. Any time the integrity of the paint film or plating is breached, condensation will occur just from temperature and humidity changes and cause oxidation, but it can be supressed.
I've had to heat and beat with an actelyene torch and 9# maul and twist with a 36" pipe wrench to loosen up some slip joints.
Lonnie
Originally written by Hack'n on 9/30/2006 2:27 PM
Greasing or other coating applications on the sliding mounts increase the propensity for slippage.Any time the integrity of the paint film or plating is breached, condensation will occur just from temperature and humidity changes and cause oxidation, but it can be supressed.
Lonnie
Ok, so HOW do you supress it? I understand that simply sealing it up still leaves the humidity and oxygen present in the tube there to do its' dirty work...
I knew that grease would be a "bad" idea. Are there any other film-like coatings that will survive installation friction and stay in place well enough to protect the surfaces?
Any specific experience with anti-seize pastes? I usually use the LocTite brand Copper grade anti-seize stick. It is a copper and aluminum paste that is rated to over 1600-degrees-f. I have been using it on the components of my ball mounts for a while to good effect. Helps them draw in smoothly, and protects the metal from corrosion reasonably well. Certainly much better than leaving it totally exposed.
When we rode to the NARMA rally at Newberry Crater a few years back the rear bottom mount of Unlce Blasto's Ural slipped and rotated. Ural America had a Russian factory mechanic at the rally. His comment as he was adjusting the mount was: "In Russia we douse these with salt water so they will rust together and cannot slip".
I share your frustration at trying to adjust toe in with old rusted up slip joints, but I don't think greasing them is a good alternative. I have had fair success putting the sidecar wheel on a furniture dolly so it can move any direction, soaking the joint with liquid wrench and beating it with a large mallet to break it free. Sometimes you need to use a large pipe clamp to bring it back in. It is stubborn, fussy work setting it up. I think that may be the nature of the beast
With a good pinching area a light coating of grease will work if the tube is not painted. Paint does not encourage a good clamping force. It will get all screwed up when it is installed anoyhow. Powder coating can be worse.
We have used 1 3/4" x .120 frame tubes with a 1 1/2" moving member inside and 1/2 clamping bolts. Thi seems to work okay as far as clamping force goes. Smaller diameter tubing does not hold as good as there is less surface area doing the clamping.
I have also built frames where the 'male' portion of this area was on the sidecar and the clamp part was on the strut. That works great if there is room.You can even use a two sided pinch block for the connection so it is easy to take apart.
If working with an existing frame these areas can be a mess to get apart and even to get back together. Like Lonnie said..A torch, some pounding and special sidecar tool number 133A are a must. Look at some of the hammer marks on older sidecars for evidence of past battles..lol.
On small diameter frames if slippage is an issue a smal weld can make a lot of difference.
Never heard of the salt method before ... pretty high tech.
Ok...
So what I have gathered so far is that I need to strip the paint/powdercoating from the male sliders and lightly coat with my anti-seize. That will give good grip and corrosion protection. The anti-seize is not as slick as a coating of grease would be...
Then repaint the part that is still exposed and caulk around the joint with a good silicone sealant to keep extra water out...
I am also thinking that if I pack some dessicant packets inside the tube before I slip them together that they should help with controling condensation inside of the tube.
Has anyone else tried that before?
The other option, I suppose, would be to get the sliders hard-chrome or nickel plated to protect them... But then we are talking some serious $$$... I will have to talk to the people who plate my Kugler Klamps and see what that will actually run. Because a plated lower mount would be nice in the winter road salt environment I run in...
Zinc plating would be less slippery than Chrome, cheaper too.
If you have enough clearance for plating.
Lonnie
Don't forget to allow for the thickness of the chrome etc. or the non rustable tube may no longer fint inside th eother one.
Wonder how stainless tubes would work? Hmmm.
Claude
Lonnie mentioned zinc plating. A non ferrous metal like zinc or copper won't fuse together with steel when they corrode. Plateing will likely scratch through and spall just like the paint. If you had the means to bore out the larger tube, you could put a thin copper bushing in. It's a lot of work for not much gain. I like the rust option.
It really does sound like a lot of work for little gain. More cosmetic than practical. I wonder if drain holes in the low spots of the chassis and joints might be more effective than dessicant? You could shoot some paint or diesel or WD-40 up them occasionally to chase out the moisture and protect the raw steel inside the chassis tubes.
If you really can't stand the thought of hidden rust, then I suppose
remaking the frame with I-beam that can't hide water or stainless or alum might be the ticket. Or you could get your set up spot on perfect and weld it in place, eliminating the slip joints. Use threaded Hiem joints for the fine adjustment.
Pretty hard to beat the old, crude standby slipjoint, made up of heavy enuf material that it won't deform with use and that rust won't sgnificantly affect the strength during the life of the sidecar.
Might be easier to move to Southern Califronia. In gods country, nothing rusts (lol).
I thought anti-sieze is a form of grease. NO? I slather it on my rear wheel splines when I get a tire change on my old Beemer.
Anti-sieze paste does usually have a petroleum grease component (sometimes synthetic), but it has a HIGH percentage of solids in it which make it different than just slathering grease on something.
Depending on the formulation, the Solids range from Aluminum or Copper dust, Graphite, Calcium Oxide, etc. which act as a high pressure lubricant against the generally harder materials of the parts being fitted together.
the "grease" component of anti-seize only ranges from 30-60% of the make-up of the total package.
Originally written by Uncle Ernie on 10/6/2006 9:15 PM
I thought anti-sieze is a form of grease. NO? I slather it on my rear wheel splines when I get a tire change on my old Beemer.
That is actually one of the reasons it works so well for the rear wheel splines on the older Beemers. It is designed for extreme pressure applications where there is little or no relative motion between the parts. It is designed to protect against fretting wear and pressure corrosion. exactly what the wheel splines see... And the solids tend to not be thrown out as easily or run when heated by excessive braking heat.
The technical data sheets for anti-sieze specifically warn against using it in bearings though, because it is designed for stationary or slow/low motion aplications. The solids content would get in the way in a roller or ball bearing... Not good...
Loctite has a special "Marine Grade" anti-sieze that I am looking at using in my slip joints during this upcoming installation. It is specifically formulated to protect against corrosion and wash-out in salt water spray environments. Sounds like Wisconsin winter road conditions to me... 🙂
I will keep you posted on how well it works...
