Well here I go showing my ignorance again... but you guys are so friendly and helpful and dont seem to mind, so its your own fault.
I am finally getting started on my Helix/velorex 562 hack. After lots of head scratching and looking and hearing about it being absolutely possible, a good match, with little loss of power, and how, I am gunna do it within a few days. So excited!
Some of you may know it requires nothing more than one or two (most people use two) square tubes u-bolted to the Helix's large, bottom, tubular frame pair. You go out with the new squares and rest the sidecar on them, attach appropriately for toe in (1/2 inch), lead, (8 inches) lean out (1/2 or none) etc.
I began thinking about how for large trailers there are sysems for distributing the tongue weight to the center of the car/truck. One thing led to another, and I have been wondering what would happen if the mount were completely centerline, flexible, allowing the bike to lean a little. (only R/L, of course, keeping the toe in constant.)
For example, the mounting squares might go to a shaft, and the shaft then held with two or three pillow blocks which are on a plate, dead center on the bike's width. Lean would be securely limited to 10? degrees either way by some metal straps, bolts, whatever.
I keep trying to wrap my mind around the physical movement of this set up. Has anyone thought this through or seen or tried anything similar?
Thanks for the comments, please just refrain from laughing to hard.
Bruce
Either, or multiply,
1. This is such a dumb question not one has any interest, or
2. No one could understand it, or
3. It it such a strange idea, people are dumbfounded and trying to figure out the physics of it, or
4. They think I am a lawyer, and this is a tort trap.
Cheers!
Bruce
Bruce,
I understand what you have in mind but keep asking myself...why??
just put a standard 4 point mounting system on it , with adjustible toe in, lean-out, and set it!
seems to me you will have a handling nightmare with the leaning bike and flat mounted SC.
there are factory jobs out there with what you have in mind ,but the SC also leans with the bike..Equi-Lean, I think its called.
you Helix-Velorex seems like a good match in weight.
5. It was too nice of a day to be at my computer. :0)
Actually, it's been done. http://www.armec.com/kmr1.html We actually have at least one member here who has one. Our illustrious Dave SzkudMxyzptlk or something like that. :0) Sorry Dave, I couldn't help myself. Tim, who's last name escapes me has a Valkyrie with a Velorex mounted in the same manner. I seem to recall that the front mount had to be higher than the rear mount. Maybe Tim will pipe in with details.
On a distance of about 30" between the front and rear mounts, the front mount should be about 4.25" higher than the rear one. I got this from Kalich and Dave Szkudlarek (Armec sidewinder). Some people may have decided for a more or less aggressive relationship than the typical 30" to 4.25". Yes, Tim Miller seems to be very happy with his set-up.
Piero Bassi
Minneapolis, Minnesota
Raising the front lower mount on a true leaner is done to facilitate the ability of the sidecar wheel to steer as the bike leans. This can also be accomplished by changing the distance of th emounts from the centerline of the bike. How much ahould it be raised is a good question. Rememebr that as it steers with you into a turn it also has to 'come back' so to speak when coming out of a turn. I would suppose that Kalich and Armec have done a lot of experimentation on this. It might be wise to make a model up and see what happens.
Pierro, I may be wrong but I think Tim Miller's rig has the mounts level or close to it.
Originally written by claude #3563 on 7/31/2006 5:55 PM"...I may be wrong but I think Tim Miller's rig has the mounts level or close to it".
I don't know but it's quite possible. When the relationship between the weight of the bike versus the weight of the sidecar is higher than the weight relationship of the Kalich's and Armec's typical installations (about 550lb BMWs with 150lb sidecars or something like that) the front mount may not need to be the typical 4" higher than the rear one. As a matter of fact, I believe Tim Miller is riding a Velorex (Tim's custom built frame) pulled by a Honda Valkirye.
Bottom line, I don't think there is a precise formula for this. I guess we will have to try...and see. The problem is that, once the sidecar frame is built with a particular height difference between the front and rear mount (let's say 4") I have not figured out yet what I would have to do to change that height except for...making a new frame.
I am building a leaner using a V-Max to pull an International sidecar. I decided to go for the relationship of 30" to 4.25" as suggested by Kalich and quite close to what Dave Szkudlarek has on his Armec Sidewinder.
Enjoy your Ron Dee Voo III
Piero Bassi
Minneapolis, Minnesota
You have brought up an interesting idea realted to these rigs. I really do not see whay we could not incorporate an adjustble fromt mount onto a leaner for tuning purposes. It makes sense why a production company wmay not want to deal with such an option but for 'one off'it surely would be doable and woudl make for a very interesting situation.
Yes, Tim has Velorex on a Valkarie for his leaner.
For those who are reading thsi and may be new to sidecaring we are talking specisfically about what for many years was refered to as an articulating ' sidecar rig.The bike is ridden like a solo bike with the sidecar just sitting there staying pretty much level. The connection of the two is typically done with teo large heim ends used for lower mounts and allowed to pivot. No upper mounts are used.
If talking about running a velorex on a valkarie seems odd due to the weight difference it must be understood that with a leaner such as these weight of the sidecar is not your friend. Light is the way to go on a leaner.
On a rigid more conventinal setup a velorex in stock form on a valkarie would not be a good match at all.
Originally written by claude #3563 on 8/1/2006 9:03 AM"....I really do not see whay we could not incorporate an adjustble fromt mount onto a leaner for tuning purposes.."
The bike subframe could be built with an adjustable front mount but...what about that part of the sidecar frame that connects to the bike front mount? How do you make that part of the frame adjustable?
Take care
Piero Bassi
Minneapolis, Minnesota
This has been extremely interesting. I learned a lot regardless of whether or not a try for a moving mount. Thanks for all the contributions.
I am fortunate to have two large tubes in the clear (part of the frame of the Helix).
To this I can mount a plate (multiple U bolts) with whatever I need for two or more bearings. Probably some angle iron, milled for bearings, etc. to keep them in place.
The plate could then be angled down with washers or custom shims. Easy to adjust for appropriate car turn. I am seeing the car turn because the rear mount sweeps further, one way or the other, than the front mount. Pushing and pulling the car's alignment.
As I think about this, it seems do-able and safe except loss of road clearance.
The arms going from the shaft to the car frame need room to move. In a right hand turn they would come up against the bike frame if the in-line shaft is not low enough. An alternative would be a curves/angles in the arms, but that still gives me a road clearance problem, just at a different place.
I wonder how much ground clearance is considered "safe?" How low do you go?
In any case it seems to me it would be very unsafe at any speed for a leaner to suddenly became a steerer.
Thanks again, everyone.
Bruce
Hi Bruce,
I just spent a great weekend with Vern Goodwin of Vern's Cycle Shop, Lincoln NE. He was working on a project, mounting a Velorex 562 to a Bergman Scooter. He was also doing a lot of head scratching and did install a manual lean adjuster to the combo. He called to make sure we made it home alright and reported that his test ride made him want to trade his motorcycle for a scooter. Vern's not on line but if you want to call and talk, he will do that for sure. 402-785-9201
Originally written by BruceinHouston on 8/2/2006 9:59 PM"..I wonder how much ground clearance is considered "safe?" How low do you go?.."
Bruce,
I decided to go with Kalich's suggestion. Ground clearence of sidecar frame can be as low as 120mm = 4.73".
Remember, you will be loosing some ground clearence (more in the front that in the back of sidecar frame) when you lean the bike in a turn. However, that it should be about .40" of loss of ground clearence in the front of the sidecar frame if you lean the bike at 25 degrees and the front mount height is 11" from the ground.
Piero Bassi
Minneapolis, Minnesota
Originally written by pierobassi on 8/3/2006 10:29 AM
Originally written by BruceinHouston on 8/2/2006 9:59 PM"..I wonder how much ground clearance is considered "safe?" How low do you go?.."
Bruce,
I decided to go with Kalich's suggestion. Ground clearence of sidecar frame can be as low as 120mm = 4.73".
Remember, you will be loosing some ground clearence (more in the front that in the back of sidecar frame) when you lean the bike in a turn. However, that it should be about .40" of loss of ground clearence in the front of the sidecar frame if you lean the bike at 25 degrees and the front mount height is 11" from the ground.
Piero Bassi
Minneapolis, Minnesota
Don't forget to consider the loss of some ground clearance due to. Also conside the movement (up down or sideways) that the plaement of the pivots at the mounts will create in left and right turns. On direction will raise the sidecar and the other will lower it at the bike side.
There was insufficient ground clearance without some real fancy fabrication. Thanks to all... I sure learned a lot!
I have uploaded photos of my trial and started another thread if anyone cares to comment.
Cheers!
Bruce
"Once you hack, you wont go back." Well, I am finding that true so far!
