Thanks for the advice. (and sorry about hi-jacking the thread)
Do you think my rig is balanced and has a potential?
'71 BSA A65T (650cc OHV vertical twin around 40 bhp?, weight 365 lbs)
Velorex 562 (no ballast)
I stepped on the left foot peg and sidecar doesn't lift up easily.
I take the same route (half an hour one way) almost everyday (19 days out of 31 in July) up and down a hill through the twisties. My passenger and load are a 3-year old (25 lbs) in child safety seat and a small bicycle (5 lbs?). Apparently I memorized all the corners in the route.
I attended Vernon's STEP course and learned to shift my body weight in the corners. I am not sure if I can use "front brake and gas" technique because BSA is underpowered and the front TLS drum brake is not that great..
I practiced in nearby school parking lot but it's flat and there's no reference. I did the tightest right turns I thought I can and ended up flying the sidecar.
There are several blind down hill decreasing radius right handers in the route where my rig cannot keep up with the traffic. I usually go there in the evening so there is not much traffic but I don't like seeing the head light of the car closely following me in my rear view mirror.
Originally written by skiri251 on 8/12/2007 1:15 PM
Thanks for the advice. (and sorry about hi-jacking the thread)
Do you think my rig is balanced and has a potential?
'71 BSA A65T (650cc OHV vertical twin around 40 bhp?, weight 365 lbs)
Velorex 562 (no ballast)I stepped on the left foot peg and sidecar doesn't lift up easily.
I take the same route (half an hour one way) almost everyday (19 days out of 31 in July) up and down a hill through the twisties. My passenger and load are a 3-year old (25 lbs) in child safety seat and a small bicycle (5 lbs?). Apparently I memorized all the corners in the route.
I attended Vernon's STEP course and learned to shift my body weight in the corners. I am not sure if I can use "front brake and gas" technique because BSA is underpowered and the front TLS drum brake is not that great..
I practiced in nearby school parking lot but it's flat and there's no reference. I did the tightest right turns I thought I can and ended up flying the sidecar.
There are several blind down hill decreasing radius right handers in the route where my rig cannot keep up with the traffic. I usually go there in the evening so there is not much traffic but I don't like seeing the head light of the car closely following me in my rear view mirror.
.......................................................................
Skiri,
What is your track width (centerline of bike wheels to centerline of sidecar wheel)? Some like to keep them narrow for whatever reason but that does nothing for stability. I recently mounted a Cozy (light sidecar but with decent shock) onto a Triumph Trident. The thing was made wide and with no ballast is very stable in right and left turns. I think th etrack width was 52".
Why no ballast? The answwrs to thsio question are alwasy intersting.
If the sidecar is light to you then add some weight...that is simple. Add it into the trunk and if it is to becoem permanent then bolt some weight onto th esidecar frame as far outboard and to the rear as possible. DO NOT add weight to the nose as it will tend to create issues on left turns.
Note that your weight also has an effect on stability.
Note also that if anyone tries to brag up that they run with no ballast ignoring them is the best policy. Your mission is to have a safe rig that is well balanced and does not become a road hazard from going too slow.
Later on after getting more experienc eyou will be abel to make a choice of whether you want to leave the ballast on, remove it or maybe remove some of it.
What year Velorex do you have? The okder oens were known for a pretty soft suspension especially after soem miles were put on them.
Does your rig have potential you ask. YES by all means it does. It shoudl be a decent match up. One of my personal all time favorite rigs was a 650 Yamaha twin with a velorex. In it;s element it was a very happy machine and provided a lot of fun for us. It was run from new england to florida on all types of roads and off road some too. Didn't like the superslabs too much bUt other than that was fine. Still miss it.
Gymnastics like hanging off and all of that can make some difference as it is simply a moving around of human ballast. Is it necessary to do this to ride safe at a decent speed? Absolutley not. Is it something that can help stability and give you a more secure feeling? Maybe and maybe not but if you learn without it you will be less tired at the end of the day and still be able to run at a good speed.
There is a lot of posts here at thsi site and at SCT on sidecar operation and saftey. Dig through the archives etc.
Your rig shoudl be just fine after maybe some tweaking here and there and more seat time.
Decreasing radius turns can be a pucker factor if they sneak up on you. Be carful on strange roads.
The track width is 45".
I don't think I can extend it any longer w/o major mods.
I had to play with rear strats so that I can still kick start.
There is no room for changing the lead either.
I don't put ballast because:
1) I don't want to tax BSA engine/clutch/trans too much.
I picked it up from PO's backyard after 25 years of neglect.
The engine seized up and rust everywhere.
I brought it back to life and it runs okay but the clutch plates are
the originals. It got 4 speed trans and 2nd and 3rd are way apart.
I think 10 lbs makes a huge difference climbing a hill with either 2nd or 3rd gear.
2) It fits the formula of sidecar weight is 1/3 of overall.
3) The sidecar didn't lift up easily when I stood on the left foot peg.
My Velorex is '90 model.
I think the suspension is soft. The rig rolls a lot in left handers.
And I think "hanging off" makes a huge difference. Maybe just a secure feeling as you say. I haven't done any experiment to see the difference in max. cornering speed.
So far, the same short twisty is the only place I go. There aren't many nice routes around where I live which don't require freeways. My rig's top speed would be around 60~65 MPH and I don't want to get on to the freeway with that and the drum brakes.
I still have a mount for the ballast I made when I hooked up the sidecar to CB750K. I will see what kind of differences 20 lbs make both cornering stability and climbing ability.
What other techniques are there?
What should I practice at?
I think I have seen an improvement in speed after 19 days of going through the same twisty as my experience and confidence build up. I can now take some corners in 3rd gear instead of 2nd.
I know it's not objective measurement but I cannot time the lap a la Isle of Man (btw, that's an amazing event. Simply unbelievable, both sidecar rigs and solo motorcycles) certainly I won't put myself and my son to that kind of risk. Plus there are traffic cops all over.
I will probably try free leaner also if only for my own experience. It may fail or succeed, I may or may not like it. But I like tinkering things and I don't have my next motorcycle to restore.
so if I am dealing with a leaner, how would track width effect my handling? I can see how a wider width would make the leverage greater on the drag both accel and decel, but too narrow and I couldn't have much stuff on it either. a compromise.
I guess I feel like I can get away with a more simple lean system than a bonafide person carrying car setup.
skiri-- I'd say go put a 25lb sack in the hack and ride the ride to your limits, don't find that fine line with your young'un along, eh?! 🙂
45" is narrow IMHO. I try to set 48" as a minimum. A little means a lot as far as track width goes.
On kick start rigs it does tack some mount modofications to be able to use th ekicker on most rigs from my experience. We typically do a subframe and place mounts when they need to be to allow the kicker and the rig to work good.
The third weight is only a starting point. YOUR body weight means a lot.
If the sidecar is tipsy add ballast if you want to and practice....that is about as simple as it gets. Once you get more practice your speed will increase and then you can decide if you want to make the rig itself handle better.
As far as th efree leaner ideas go they are a totally different program. Light is your friend on one of these whereas it may not be on a rigid sidecar. Also track width on a leaner must be wide enough to allow th ebike to lean toward the sidecar at a good lean angle. The placement of and smooth operation of the lower pivots is critical to have the rig work as you wish.
I learned much from this thread. I'm feeling more confident in left turns and right turns.
However, there is a nearby cloverleaf that has a downhill decreasing, increasing, decreasing radius turn with no camber that gets me into a pucker factor, I run it slow which aggravates the person behind me but that's ok.
I've practiced twice flying the chair by removing all ballast. I'm not comfortable with it yet, and yes, I swing wide without thinking.
More practice is in order.
For information, I have a Valkyrie/Spyder combo. I have a 56 inch tread width. The Valk weighs about 1,000 pounds with me and the Spyder weighs 210 or so but I carry about 80-100 pounds of ballast. This is not an ideal setup but the tread width partially makes up for it. The rig handles very well, no slow speed wobble, and tracks well. It will easily travel all day at 80 to 90mph very stable (no, that's not my speed) but knowing what I know now, I would've installed a heavier car like a Motorvation II..
However, installing my own car has been an experience and I've learned a lot. This forum has increased my knowledge .
Glad to see that things are coming along for you and that your feeling more comfortable in the turns, the downhill turns decreasing turns are a challenge to be sure but wait untill you get a down hill right hand decreasing radius off camber to the left turn,,,,NO fun.
snowbeard,
I think for free leaner, the track width should be narrow as possible.
Less momentum disturbance when you accel/decel. Plus in left turns your rigs overall width increases because motorcycle leans and that gives you less room to avoid on-coming traffic. But as Claude says you need enough leaning room for right handers. In that aspect, you should be okay because you will just have a frame, no tub.
I ride my rig almost to the limit to just keep up. That's not good. One slip of my fingers off brake lever or unintended twist of throttle will put me in on-coming traffic. And that extra 25 lbs taxes the drum brake also. So it seems wider track width is the solution for my rigid rig.
Actually I need that for free leaner also. It's a good opportunity to widen the Velorex frame. That will work for both ways! (I need harder spring for rigid setup though...)
Claude,
Thanks for the track width info.
I will see if I can squeeze a bit more track width out of the current setup. How many threads should I have in the strat for it to be strong enough?
solo1,
I wish I have the hp of the Valk..
Velorex recommends 2" of threaded bolt inside the strut. 1 1/2" should be adequate for a minimum.
Lonnie
Originally written by Hack'n on 8/13/2007 9:37 AM
Velorex recommends 2" of threaded bolt inside the strut. 1 1/2" should be adequate for a minimum.
Lonnie
Thanks Lonnie.
That long!
I may not have long enough even now.. let alone extending it more.
skiri-- maybe you could add a drum brake wheel on your car? I've barely been able to see pictures of this sort of thing, but it seems like you can set it up to mechanically work from the foot brake? I don't know that much, but it seems like if you could add that it would at least help the decel, if not the accel...
My sidecar is equipped with a drum brake.
There have been discussions over pros and cons of sidecar brakes in the forum. My understanding is that unless synch'ed properly sidecar brake will do more harm than good. And synch'ing mechanical brakes is not so easy..
And BSA rig is by no means a tourer. I need more powerful tug than 650cc twin to get on freeways. So XS750 is a natural choice. It's shaft driven, triple disk brake equipped. (Although the brake doesn't work as good as CB750K at the moment..)
It's just like your GS650G. Very nice bike you picked up btw.
I once owned Katana 750 (later MkII model unfortunately). The same Hans Muth design.
Ideally I need two rigs. One rigid and one free leaner.
That would be great.
"Ideally I need two rigs. One rigid and one free leaner."
aim high, eh?! 🙂
yep, the suzi is quite the performer for me so far. that's why I bought the 850!
seems like the brake synch could be tough, but it would just be the angles and lever arms, no? I mean, its easy for me to sit at a computer having never touched a car yet and say that, but can't one just try it and back off or hammer down on it either way? or can you maybe not tell until you pass that invisible line...?
or only tell by wear on the tires?
just random thinking over here, could be dangerous...
Skiri,
If you aren't stuck on keeping the Beezer original you coudl possibly swap out the whole fork assembly for a dual disc setup off of a whatever. I do not know what may or may not work but these types of swaps can work well and even reduce the trail for easier steering if you want to really do some exploring.
Actually you may be able to get mroe out of your drum setupo with a a little tweaking. Drums have goitten a bad rap from some but when setup right they can work quite well. Brake fade can be an issue on some and inconsistancies can surface when in the wet but usually they can be setup to work pretty darn good under normal riding circustances.
Originally written by snowbeard on 8/13/2007 2:05 PM
"Ideally I need two rigs. One rigid and one free leaner."
aim high, eh?! 🙂
I can always dream, can't I?
Originally written by snowbeard on 8/13/2007 2:05 PM
seems like the brake synch could be tough, but it would just be the angles and lever arms, no? I mean, its easy for me to sit at a computer having never touched a car yet and say that, but can't one just try it and back off or hammer down on it either way? or can you maybe not tell until you pass that invisible line...?
or only tell by wear on the tires?just random thinking over here, could be dangerous...
Can be an interesting exercise. But I am already on free leaner route so it'll be after that if I try.
