103 with tune and 255 cams - 20 fp at 2500 rpm
95 inch with tune and 203 cam - 20 fp at 2500 rpm
96" with tune and heavy breather - 5 fp at 2500 rpm
96" with se round intake and tune - 2fp at 2500 rpm [10fp at 4500 rpm]
so ill stick by my take that the air cleaner wont make much differnence
the TUNE makes a difference
the CAM makdes a difference
but its the DISPLACEMENT that makes the really big difference
why have i not done displacement? i as you are worried about the tiny piston skirts in the big bore engines
however a torque cam and a TUNE will make a big difference
air cleaner and pipes are easy, they are outside the engine, they look cool, they can make noise - and thats all cool - but it does not make 20 foot pounds at 2500 so i dont bother with it.
when i need to do pistons, or crank or whatever when the time comes - ill likely go bigger, but ill go with a mild torque cam and a good tune.
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Agree to disagree. A/C, pipes and tune cheapest HP you can buy and the first step in any performance work on a harley.
I agree with QB...A/c and pipes, carb jet or remap make a vey noticable diff on any HD engine..
Yes, there is No substitutue for cubic inches, but alot can be done along with that to improve the whole program..
Ive actually seen dynos on 95" bikes with greater results than 103 or 110 engines...
The 95" package seems to work very well on twin cams...and retains very good heat disapation as well as reliablity ....
My 95", carb,A/C kit, pipes,S&S 510g cams, S/E ignition system,coil,& wires works very well....
Hot or windy conditions I use premium fuel, normal riding regular fuel...
Castrol syntec 5-50 oil....
More power???? Not reguired!
Thats all I got to say about That>>>LOL
😉
I had the engine rebuilt on my '03 fatboy w/Champion Legend sidecar after the inner cam bearing fell apart and chunks went through the oil pump. It had a big bore kit installed by the previous owner. I had the engine bumped up to 103" using a big bore kit and stroker crank, installed Fred's Heads (ported, polished, big valves, yadda....) a high torque cam, high volume oil pump (MOST important), true dual exhaust, stock carb with jetting change. Had the local Harley shop do the work for big bucks. If I had it to do over I would still have the same work done but would have a reputable independent shop do the work. I have found them all over the country. Harley engine cases are designed to handle the 103" displacement with no problems. If you think you want/need more cubes you should go with S&S or another after market manufacturer.
As the saying goes, "There is no replacement for displacement". It made a world of difference in the performace of the rig. It didn't affect the MPG too much as long as I keep my right wrist under control. Harder to do than it might seem! I am back to stock exhaust because the baffle in the right muffler wore a hole through, started getting pretty loud. I do think an aftermarket exhaust allows the engine to breathe easier. I will probably be installing a Rinehart 2 into 1 exhaust later this year. After I had the engine rebuilt and broken in I took the bike sans sidecar to a dyno. With all the work done and the true dual exhaust on the bike it made peak torque of 112 ft#'s at 2800 to 3000 RPM's, perfect for 70 mph cruising speed. Shop owner said he'd never seen a Harley make peak torque that low. If I remember correctly the cams are Andrews 203's. My philosophy when rebuilding the engine was more torque/power, but let's not break it! I have about 3 years and 30000 miles on it since the rebuild with no problems whatsoever except having to re-jet the carb after moving to arizona. It didn't like >100 degrees with the original jets, went 2 sizes bigger and it runs great, again!
An addendum to my previous post----in re-reading it I meant peak toeque at that low of an rpm, as posted by others most cams are designed for torque/HP somewhere around 4500/5000 rpm's. Sorry for any confusion!
hey I appreciate all the discussions... am looking at pipes/tuner/breather for a starter.... then start working the money for bigger jugs/hydraulic lifters-plate w/better bearings / 204 cam....
many many folks get all upset at my position on the subject. "how dare i contradict standard opinion!"
so - its your bike, your bux do what you want - but read this
http://www.americanrider.com/output.cfm?id=1205749
another who shares my opinion.
tuner, cam, bore, stroke
dont need pipes or air cleaner till you want to go a hundred. pipes cost near a thousand bux - set of big jugs and pistong 800 bux tax included - tuner needed either way - spend the pipes bux on jugs and you will be MUCH happier.
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Not only do I disagree with you I disagree with the fool who wrote the article. Made tons of generizations to prove his point. You know you can't believe everything you read on the net. The cheapest HP is made with A/C, Pipes and tuner. Don't have to spend big money bud. K&N filter in a modified stock box 60 bucks, Slip ons Wildpigs 200 and a P/C 200. Just beat your 800 big bore kit. Can't change the facts it's called the Harley Tax
QB,
We all share our opinions here. How about agreeing to disagree without the name calling? It makes for a better forum.
Thanks,
Lonnie
hack'n think the only one I called a fool was the writer of the article. I already agreed to disagree with Timo. I'm cool. Been hanging on bike forums for a long time. Know the rules and wouldn't call names. Sorry
Hmmmmm, it seems I'm the one that timo thinks is upset at his position on pipes, filters, etc. Nothing could be further from the truth, I read the article he attached and the guy makes some valid points, e.g. downshift before accelerating...... . I'm not a rider that thinks my engine is going to blow up if I rev it above 1500 rpm's like so many others in the Harley world. Most of the people (in the harley world) I see try to keep their rpm's in the range from idle to about 1500 (until they are on the freeway, then they lug it up to cruising speed), those rpm's are far too low in my opinion. Remember, this is my opinion. I never run my engine below 2000 when riding, I usually shift @ 3000, occasionnaly run it up to 4000/4500 before shifting if I am trying to merge into heavy traffic. This opinion is based on the results obtained from the dyno tuning mentioned earlier where peak torque was produced @ 2800/3000 rpm's. The HP curve was slightly below the Torque curve at this range. Torque flattened @ 3000 and slightly declined up to the 5500 rpm limit by the tuner/operator of the dyno, HP continued to climb up to the 5500 rpm limit. Both torque and HP rose steeply from the lower limit of 2000 rpm's used by the dyno operator. Below 2000 rpm's there is negligible power produced, the engine is lugging trying to perform work, and in this condition is working on destroying itself. An engine operating at or near it's power range is actually working less hard than outside it's power range, either above or below!
Power is a combination of torque and horsepower. In my engine peak power production occurs at 3000 rpm's, peak torque with HP just below the torque line. The engine mods were designed with this objective in mind---peak power @ 3000 rpm's---70 MPH, remember my transmission is only a 5 speed. In this condition the engine is loafing along, operating right where it wants to be!
The reason for the true dual exhaust was two fold, 1) get the exhaust fumes/noise behind the bike/tub so my wife didn't need to hear the revererations or breathe fumes at slow speeds, 2) try to provide as free breathing as possible for the engine @ freeway speeds. I think these objectives were accomplished by the exhaust I installed (there was also a reverse gear shifter I needed to clear). The stock exhaust I put back on the bike has an annoying reverb effect between the bike and tub, it seems much louder than the dual exhaust. Whether or not more power is made with the stock exhaust vs. the dual exhaust is a moot point as I didn't put the bike on a dyno with stock exhaust and then with the dual exhaust. I'm not made of money and it's a PITA to remove and install the sidecar in order to test every possible permutation of modification.
So, now, can we remember these are only opinions and not get our panties inna' bunch? I've only just now gotten mine out from between my cheeks! It's a lot more comfortable sitting here writing this now! We're s'posed ta' be friends here.
I've been riding Harley-Davidsons for many years, with and without sidecars. The modern fuel injected versions will idle at about 1,000 rpm. There is no real pulling power available until 2,000 rpm. I accelerate to 3,000 rpm most of the time since that's where the torque is best. I never heard of anyone running at 1,500 rpm for any length of time. That's called lugging and it's not wise.
As to exhaust systems, there's a reason why HD uses a cross over in their bikes. It makes the engine run smoother and also reduces back pressure since the engine has two places to push its exhaust. People make changes to the exhaust systems on Harleys for a myriad of reasons including looks, noise and possible performance increases. I just run stock ones.
I could see bumping an 88" bike (1999-2006 FL's) to 95 cu. in without doing much else. The pipes and cams often raise the point at which torque is avaialable. To each his or her own.
I agree with Mr. Hack'n that we shouldn't call names on this site.
I wrote to Andrews cams and asked what they would recommend for my 2004 FLHTCUI (the one with sidecar) with stock displacement 88", air cleaner change and screaming eagle exhaust, (which isn't as loud as the same part # exhaust on my 99 Road King w/o sidecar). They got back to me and recommended their "21" grind, the cam can be used with stock springs so you don't even have to remove the valve covers. The next time I take it apart for chain tensioner replacement, I'll probably go with that and a gear drive.
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bluehdmc thats a good grind for hauling a car. If I was you I would also look into changing to the newer style hydrolic set up instead of gears. These newer bikes 02 and up have to much crank run out for gears quite often and the new set-up has proven itself.
Just my 02
jeff
plus in the swap you get an oil pump that pumps more but more importantly scavages 30% better on the return side.
