Harley is responding to the EPA when they set the fual injection maps as lean as they do. They have about reached the end of the air-cooled era at this point and it's being driven by the EPA.
It started in the early 90's. I bought a new 1993 FLHS and it was all I could do to get it home from the dealer. It coughed, chuffed, snorted and stalled at every corner. I went back to the dealer and they gave me the jets that fixed the problem. They weren't allowed to install them, I guess, so I did.
The issue can be corrected, however. While no one likes to think about spending more money, it's not all Harley's fault. They know perfectly well how to make a machine that won't ping and which runs cool.
Unfortunately, if they build that machine, they wouldn't be able to sell it. It's sort of a wink-wink deal.everybody knows what's wrong and the dealers do good business selling you the stuff. Even that is on the way out, however. I have heard that Harley has stopped marketing their Screamin' Eagle line of performance-enhancing products. It may be that the aftermarket will have to take up the slack.
If they eventually have to go to a liquid-cooled machine, it will take them a few years to sort it out. Who knows, I may be back on a Gold Wing.....only problem with that is finding a Honda dealer that has free coffee. Hahahahahaha.
i have a 2007 ultra with a tle - about 5k on it as of today.
1 - 6th gear is for 65 and over only - NEVER use 6th under 65, NEVER use 5th under 55 or it will ping - 2500 rpm is the minimum with no passenger, with a passenger keep it above 2600 or it will ping. check out the torque curve for the engine - 2200 is asking for trouble.
5th and 6th are gas milage gears for high speed running
2 - if you put in a fuel commander/ sert / power commander - you just VOIDED YOUR WARRANTY, same if you change the pipes - other than a few specific listed EPA approved items - the EPA will fine the bejesus out of anybody they catch & they have been catching folks of late - west coast choppers just paid over 200k for said activities.
3 - if you ARE keeping the rpm up in the sweet spot and its running too hot and pinging - there are fixes & hd has paid for them - check out some of the bike bbs's or do some google search on overheat. just remember that most have been traced to using 6th gear at low speeds & thus not warranted.
4 - i had a rear cyl problem - ran a bit hot, puked a small amount of oil from the air cleaner - they took it apart under warranty, replaced the rings in both cyls, redid the rear cyl completely & ran it on the dyno 9 heat cycles to fully break it in under controlled conditions and it its so far [knock on wood] perfect. no leaks, pulls the tle 85 with the cruise on, gets decent milage and does not ping.
and as always with any net information - ymmv
Timo482 said: "2 - if you put in a fuel commander/ sert / power commander - you just VOIDED YOUR WARRANTY, same if you change the pipes - other than a few specific listed EPA approved items - the EPA will fine the bejesus out of anybody they catch & they have been catching folks of late - west coast choppers just paid over 200k for said activities. "
That's right. It's going that way, looks like. It sounds like all of my friends and the dealer are going to jail after they pay their heavy fines. Fortunately my bike is still stock. LOL
the worst stuff i read about is on the coasts - but here in the twin cities the dealers, while they still DO work, are way more cautious - they will tell you what the deal is but wont put it in writing. they also want bikes brought in for dyno work hauled in on a trailer and hauled away on a trailer, preferably with no plate on it, so they can have a picture that shows it was not on the street when they had it last & thus have "plausible denyability". [read "the owner did it not me"] also the local dealers have "this dealer will warrant the work we do" followed in the next verbal line "however when on the road you will have to have it shipped back here for warranty work as other dealers do not have to/ will not/ honor the warranty"
all that said, the first question the hd factory folks had on the phone was "is it still epa legal" only when the answer was affirmative did they become very helpfull and pay the bill in full to get it fixed properly. the other new twist that started in jan was that they have to take downt he vin of all bikes they work on and document the devil out of it. when ive asked questions they take a deep breath and say - well we dont keep records of any non epa work.. just cash and carry.
im not going to do anything that will void my warranty - its just not worth it. the thing will pull the tle at 85 on the cruise control, just how fast do i need to go?
to get back to the original thread - this looks to me to be a clear warranty claim - they should get you a new tub. i just checked mine & i load it really heavy and there are no cracks anywhere.
to
Hi Timo and GNM
Well I am certainly glad I posted here as the last thing I want to do is Damage my engine-From Day one I would certainly like a lower 1st gear- I think in the "old" days you could get a lower gear for sidecar work.
My previous Harleys were an 80 cube shovel head FLH and then an early Evo engine FLH, how times have changed.
After the Harleys I had Moto Guzzi, BMW and Goldwing all very usable as they all had leading link front forks.
I have taken My present rig back 3 times to try and get them to make it "steer neutraul in a Straight line while cruising" it pulls to the right constantly- so you take up that push with the right arm and pull with the Left posture which is not great for cruising any distance.
Good news from the Dealer he has forwarded my Photos to HD with a recomendation for a new Tub. Fingers crossed
Thanks
Paul
Originally written by sidecarbrit on 4/19/2007 7:41 PM
Hi Timo and GNM
Well I am certainly glad I posted here as the last thing I want to do is Damage my engine-From Day one I would certainly like a lower 1st gear- I think in the "old" days you could get a lower gear for sidecar work.
My previous Harleys were an 80 cube shovel head FLH and then an early Evo engine FLH, how times have changed.
After the Harleys I had Moto Guzzi, BMW and Goldwing all very usable as they all had leading link front forks.
I have taken My present rig back 3 times to try and get them to make it "steer neutraul in a Straight line while cruising" it pulls to the right constantly- so you take up that push with the right arm and pull with the Left posture which is not great for cruising any distance.
Good news from the Dealer he has forwarded my Photos to HD with a recomendation for a new Tub. Fingers crossed
Thanks
Paul
Hi,
I think it might still be possible to lower the gearing on your bike. It might take a change of motor sprockets and clutch basket. I know that was true with the FL's up to 2006. Many would change from 3.15 gearing down to 3.37:1, which was the same as the 1990's Evo's. I don't really know whether there are parts available for this for a 2007, however. Harley has been going higher in ratios more for emissions than your convenience.
As to the pulling right. You can fix that yourself. Get a magnetic protractor from Sears or H.F. Check that the frame is level under the tub. That will place the wheel vertical since the axle is in line with the frame.
The bike should start at no more than 1 degree in so that when you are seated, it will be very close to vertical (0 degrees) Your protractor placed on a flat area like a package rack on hung under the frame will tell you.
After that, you can start lengthening the rear mount using the left-handed thread coupler after loosening the nuts. It works just like a turnbuckle. This will increase toe-in. It's preferable to use toe-in rather than excessive lean-out which is not only uncomfortable as you mention but also looks really strange. It's usually not necessary to have more than 1 degree out.
Keep lengthening and re-tightening and testing until you get fairly neutral steering on a reasonable flat road. It also helps to run the sidecar tire just a blt low. I usually use about 28-30 psi. This will give a larger footprint and help the sidecar to track.
Remember, since there is no electric lean, it will still temporarily pull to the right on a very high cambered road. Hopefully, you will be OK on a freeway.
By all means get the applicable sidecar setup book for your year. if you have a 2007, it's P/N 99485-07. In that book, there is a nice table that shows potential troubleshooting scenarios and how to fix pulling. They mention more leanout and more toe-in to cure pulling right but I typically try for a vertical bike and concentrate more on the toe-in.
When I set up a sidecar, I just keep tweaking it until it steers the way I want it to. I will then write down the measurements and save them for the time that I have to remove the hack in order to work on the engine.
I fear that the folks down at the dealer, God bless 'em, don't now much more about dialing a hack in than you do.
Happy Trails.
the PRE 84 bikes came with adjustable rake forks if the bike was ordered for sidecar use, they also had either a smaller engine sprocket or a smaller transmission sprocket depending on the year & they could also be ordered with a 3 speed w reverse trans.
the plain truth is to get it to steer neutral like a bike with a leading link would you need a front fork that works the same as the stock harley shovel fork you had in the 70's - but you have to buy that tree from the aftermarket, harley doesnt make it any more - i got mine from liberty - its fabulous..
as for gearing im not having much trouble at all - it IS however geared much higher than the older ones were, my 77 was much lower geared than my 07 is - but the 77 was gasping at 65 with a hack, and the 07 will pretty much go as fast as i can imaging going with a sidecar. i would however seriously look at a lower/deeper first gear if it was less than 500$ installed
that said - if the alignment is really exactly right it will run straight - but ONLY on a road with the same tilt as the one the alignment was done on.
Out of curiousity I checked the tyre pressures of all 3 wheels today and they were all different from that as recommended in the HD sidecar manual.
Yes I can imagine you asking why I hadn't checked them before- well when you buy a new outfit and you have paid 2 delivery charges and 2 PDI and the service dept. tell you they have checked the tyre pressures- you believe them- anyway the outfit still pulls slightly to the right-its great on a road that slightly curves to the right.
I believe in Giving people a chance to do what they say they will do and my dealer is trying and I feel he is slightly out of his depth but I believe its a good learning curve for them- If I try and sort it out they won't learn and from what various people have said here the minute you touch your bike yourself in any way you void your warranty.
I have just counted the 40 warning/caution notices in the sidecar owners manual its about 54 pages long- 3 blank pages.LOL
I was in another Harley Dealership -keeping out of the rain- and asked about reducing the gearing on an 07 - we looked in the parts catalogue and learned the following- the Final drive is 2 teeth less than an 06 model, they have also redesigned the rear swing arm and there is now very little adjustment at the rear axle.
Thanks for all your input, I am learning a lot.
Paul
I am not sure about this now but years back Layman's HD in Tampa was pretty good with sidecar setup. Don't even know if they are still around. Might be worth checking into.
Originally written by sidecarbrit on 4/22/2007 8:07 PM
Out of curiousity I checked the tyre pressures of all 3 wheels today and they were all different from that as recommended in the HD sidecar manual.
Yes I can imagine you asking why I hadn't checked them before- well when you buy a new outfit and you have paid 2 delivery charges and 2 PDI and the service dept. tell you they have checked the tyre pressures- you believe them- anyway the outfit still pulls slightly to the right-its great on a road that slightly curves to the right.
I believe in Giving people a chance to do what they say they will do and my dealer is trying and I feel he is slightly out of his depth but I believe its a good learning curve for them- If I try and sort it out they won't learn and from what various people have said here the minute you touch your bike yourself in any way you void your warranty.
I have just counted the 40 warning/caution notices in the sidecar owners manual its about 54 pages long- 3 blank pages.LOL
I was in another Harley Dealership -keeping out of the rain- and asked about reducing the gearing on an 07 - we looked in the parts catalogue and learned the following- the Final drive is 2 teeth less than an 06 model, they have also redesigned the rear swing arm and there is now very little adjustment at the rear axle.
Thanks for all your input, I am learning a lot.
Paul
Hi, I'm not certain whether they changed gearing on the 2007's. I know my 2004 has 3.15:1 and that's a little on the high side. I have the five speed gearbox which is good for me since I've got a bum left leg anyway. It makes 4th gear a winner for anything up to 60 miles per hour.
Harley did indeed change the rear swingarm on the 2004 and later models. They now sport a 1" rear axle with nice cast steel axle mounts welded into square tubing that is much larger than earlier swingarms. They had lots of broken swingarms on the 1999 to 2003's due to the slight additional power of the TC88. They may well have changed again in 2007 since they change literally everything else.
I'm sure you could lower the gearing if you had the fortitude and the funds.
The book is pretty good, actually. It only has one error in it where they discuss changing toe-in on page 4-4. Contrary to the text, it's no longer necessary to remove any bolts to change toe-in. It's just a matter of loosening the jam nuts and rotating the stand-off like a turnbuckle and then re-tightening. I think a couple of turns on that rear standoff to increase toe-in will cure your pulliing-right issue. It did on mine.
Clyde's suggestion above to look for a dealer who is more knowledgable in sidcars is a good one. There are some HD dealers that sell more sidecars. It would be worth a call to HD's main line to ask about that. They've been very helpful to me.
Other than that, we are on our own. LOL.
Happy Trails!
gnm109
ya they did raise the gearing [taller ratio] on the 07 96" bikes.. i belive its two teeth smaller on the rear sprocket.
IF the belt is long enough it might be possible to put in a larger rear sprocket
i just went with a shorter rear tire/wheel 4 mph off at 75 but it sits a inch lower
later
to
I am reading what you said and I need a bit of help in Identifying the "Jam Nuts and Rotating the stand off" I might have to go and get the latest Sidecar service manual as mine is an 03-Which probably doesn't help!!
Thanks
Paul
if you dont have the proper manual - you are not going to get very far at all. or at least knock your head against the wall a lot.. the 03 manual might as well be greek for the good it will do on a 07 bike and sidecar. heck, even the pictures and part list will be wrong where it really counts.
basically the frame is a hollow tube threaded left hand on the inside - a short hollow tube that is color coded , has a hex on one end and is threaded inside and out left hand thread on the outside and right hand thread on the inside. then there is a hiem joint that is threaded right hand thread on the outside, both sets of outside threads have a nut on them
to assemble - screw the large left hand nut on to the outside of the standoff [the thing that is threaded inside and out] and then screw it into the frame till one thread shows, then put the small right hand nut on the hiem joint and thread it into the stand off. to adjust the length of the unit all you have to do is loosen both jam nuts and screw the stand off one way or the other to lengthen or shorten the joint.
on newer sidecars both ends of the frame are this way.. if you have a 07 sidecar on a 07 bike a 03 manual is not going to do a lot of good - too many parts have now changed - especially how to adjust toe in, and the wiring, and the brakes, and the sound.....
to
Originally written by timo482 on 4/24/2007 7:35 PM
if you dont have the proper manual - you are not going to get very far at all. or at least knock your head against the wall a lot.. the 03 manual might as well be greek for the good it will do on a 07 bike and sidecar. heck, even the pictures and part list will be wrong where it really counts.
basically the frame is a hollow tube threaded left hand on the inside - a short hollow tube that is color coded , has a hex on one end and is threaded inside and out left hand thread on the outside and right hand thread on the inside. then there is a hiem joint that is threaded right hand thread on the outside, both sets of outside threads have a nut on them
to assemble - screw the large left hand nut on to the outside of the standoff [the thing that is threaded inside and out] and then screw it into the frame till one thread shows, then put the small right hand nut on the hiem joint and thread it into the stand off. to adjust the length of the unit all you have to do is loosen both jam nuts and screw the stand off one way or the other to lengthen or shorten the joint.
on newer sidecars both ends of the frame are this way.. if you have a 07 sidecar on a 07 bike a 03 manual is not going to do a lot of good - too many parts have now changed - especially how to adjust toe in, and the wiring, and the brakes, and the sound.....
to
Timo482 gives a good explanation here. Certainly, by all means, purchase the correct manual for your bike. The only problem would be if there is too much variation between the year of the bike and the year of the sidecar.
You see, before they added that intermediate, dual-threaded stand-off, there was only the Heim joint with a right-handed thread, sticking out of both the front and rear frame sections of the sidecar frame. There was no stand-off unit for adjustment without removal. The Heim Joint came in around 1983 or so, with the first Shovelhead rubber-mounted FLT, give or take a year) and remained the same until around 2001, when they added the dual-adjusting stand-offs. The rear mount is now P/N 87150-02, front is P/N 87165-02). The frame was changed at the same time to a P/N 87436-98A and the rear mount on the frame was changed to a P/N 87157-83A. But I digress. LOL.
With the dual thread, as explained by Timo482, you could safely have 3/8" maximum on each side of the coupling - 3/8" for the Heim joint and 3/8" where the adjuster screws into the frame with its left-hand thread. So, I would estimate that the new setup could allow as much as 3/4" total adjustment without fear. (3/8" plus 3/8") Since the left and right hand threads are the same pitch on that adjuster, an equal amount would be applied to the extension on each side for each turn of the adjuster.
Pre-2002 HD sidecars had the problem of having to remove the Heim joint to make an adjustment. With a 2007 sidecar (Sidecarbrit, are you still there?) all you need is the 2007 book. Ironically, however, the book is wrong in the section regarding adjusting toe-in. The book says that you have to remove the Heim joint end and turn. This is not correct. It's no longer necessary. You merely loosen and turn the standoff as explained hereinabove.
Happy Trails and God Speed!
Your pal in Northern Califonria, gnm109!
Well I have ordered the 07 Manual!
On the 18th April the dealer said he was waiting for the approval No. to replace the sidecar.
On the 1st May he said HD want their Rep to inspect the sidecar!
As the speed limit is mainly 55 - 60 around here I am now just using 5th gear at those speeds and anything less I am in 4th.
So for most road use I am in 4th.
5th gear is such a noisy rattly gear.
Paul
