Yes, the Dunlop 491 is a good choice for a rig or even a solo bike. I used to use them on my 1994 SE Goldwing and they would go 18-20K miles on front and rear. I'm waiting for my sidecar to come in right now. It has been shipped.
The first time I change tires, I will go to the Dunlop 491's or later equivalent. They are a rather hard tire and generally wear very well.
Thanks.
Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all.
Looking to see if I could con a few of you guys into posting some pictures of your rigs from the rear. I know all rigs are different but I would like to see a few pictures of other rigs (from the rear) so I might compare them to mine. Just seems like I have her leaning too much, but maybe I don't... Thanks, Tony Graf
Tony,
If you look in Hack'ns Hacks in the albums section here, there are many pix of the rear of Sidecar outfits. There are 7 albums to choose from.
Lonnie
Bike pulling to right can also be caused by the level the rear shocks of the bike are set at. The guy who set my rig up weighed 100 pounds more than I and jacked the rear shocks of my S83 all the way up. When he rode the rig it tracked very nicely, but when I was on it, it pulled to the right. I lowered the shocks to the lowest setting and it took about 75% of the right pull out. I then change my toe in by a 1/4 inch and now the rig tracks great, empty or with my 110# wife in it. Leanout is about 1 degree. Two guys that have installed many sidecars told me the leanout should not be so much that the rider would noticed it when sitting on the bike..... I do not notice mine.
Jerry
Jerry, When you lowered the bike the lean out was increased when you were on it. When the heavier guy was on it it was okay for him but not for you. Leanout is the main factor in a rig tracking straight. Toe in is the main factor that will give good or bad tire wear. Tracking and tire wear are the two indicators of a rig being rigfht fo rany given person and what is right for one may not be for another.
Not exactly what Bob Darden of Texas Sidecars explained to me the other day..... he says not enough toe in is usually the cause of bikes pulling to the right and not lean out. I'm not an expert, but I think he is. Also I am just telling what helped me and I believe all rigs probably differ somewhat. I have no uneven tire wear on my Texas rig after moving the toe in another 1/4 inch.
Had lots of tire wear on my 1998 Ural.... it tracked straight so I did not mess with any adjustments..... just figured it was the cheap Russian tires.
Jerry
keyssidecar wrote: Not exactly what Bob Darden of Texas Sidecars explained to me the other day..... he says not enough toe in is usually the cause of bikes pulling to the right and not lean out. I'm not an expert, but I think he is. Also I am just telling what helped me and I believe all rigs probably differ somewhat. I have no uneven tire wear on my Texas rig after moving the toe in another 1/4 inch.Had lots of tire wear on my 1998 Ural.... it tracked straight so I did not mess with any adjustments..... just figured it was the cheap Russian tires.Jerry========================================================= Too much toe in or toe out can usually be felt as a pull as slower speeds as went coming up to a stop. If bad enough toe can have an effect on the pull at higher speeds too. Sometimes not though. Where folks get messed up is when they try to adjust for pull by changing the toe in itself and not adjusting lean out. I foolishly took a rig to W Va from Central Pa that was never setup We were in a hurry to get on the road and I just eyeballed it a little ran it around the block, so to speak, and left. As far as handling goes it di very well on all surfaces from the super slab to the twisties. It did pull a little to the left more than normal under breaking and I figured the toe in was off some. On the return trip with about a hundred miles to go the threads began to show in the rear tire. No it was not a new tire when we left but was not that bad at all. To make it home we reduced speed and kept leaning the bike out in an effort to run on a part of th etire that still had rubber on it. We did make it but barely. I was stupid to leave without looking things over better. When I did check to toe in we found it had 3" pLEASE DON'T TELL ANYONE...LOL.
I like to setup with about 1 degree of leanout with normal loading and go to toe-in adjustment for the rest of the alignment. This has worked well for hundreds of installations.
But as was said earlier, Tracking and sidecar tire wear patterns are the best indicator of proper alignment of the rig regardless of the numbers.
Lonnie
Northwest Sidecar
Lonnie wrote: "Tracking and sidecar tire wear patterns are the best indicator of proper alignment of the rig regardless of the numbers." That is the bottom line. Some High Performance sidecar have run extreme toe in due to not wanting to rum any lean out due to the wide tires on them.
I have a wide type car tire on my Texas Ranger sidecar..... not a motorcycle type tire that I had on my 1998 Ural.
Jerry
Lonie: This was what basically Bob Darden of Texas sidecar explained to me the other day on the phone..... seems you pros approach the set up the same way. Thanks for the feed back.
Jerry
This may sound vain but the reason I was concerned about leanout is because my buddies at work would come up and say to me "man, why is your bike crooked...you look like your gonna fall over". So I had them take a picture of me on it and they were right. But, alas, Claude comes to the rescue again...my subframe adjustments were shifting under load, so I was constantly adjusting the damn leanout. Claude, if you see this post, thanks for all the help..actually thank all of ya'll.
I've been pondering how to address the ease with which the sidecar wheel comes up on my rig with my light passenger (apart from adding ballast - I'd rather make setup improvements first) and would also like to thank contributors to this thread - it has been most helpful. I think my rig is running considerably more lean out than required. I also think the chair could be lower and further out than it currently is - have been thinking these two for a while, but it was great to hear some more experienced thoughts on all this.
Stout
There are several factors not addressed in this thread that affect the amount of toe and lean required for a given rig and the effect that adjustments will have on the way a rig handles.
The speed where you want neutral handling. The wind resistance or drag on the sidecar changes as a square of the speed. this means a speed change of say 20 mph from 50 to 70 can double the pull the sidecar exerts on the rig. Unless you have a way to adjust the lean while riding you have to pick a target speed to set up the rig for neutral handling. It can't have a sweet spot everywhere.
The crown of the road. Narrow secondary roads can have several degrees difference in crown from riding the centerlane of a 3 lane interstate. Again pick a target, you can't have leanout adjusted perfect for both.
The traction of the sidecar tire vs. the traction of the bike tire. The amount of effect the toe in of the sidecar tire will have on the handling of the rig will relate to the ratio of traction between the sidecar tire and bike tire. The amount of toe in on an unloaded velorex mounted to a goldwing will have very little effect on handling or tire wear on the bike. A heavy sidecar with an adult passenger and full set of camping gear will quickly shred the tire of a lighter bike and have considerable effect on the rig's handling if the toe is not perfect.
The toe helps you go straight until you ride through the speed where your front end shakes. When your front end stops shaking you have reached a point where tire slip is equalized between the sidecar and bike, the toe is no longer helping the rig go straight, now the rig travel's somewhat sideways down the road. Before it shakes the toe is pushing the bike and you are steering to compensate for it. During headshake the sidecar tire is pushing on the front wheel then slipping, then pushing again this shake is compounded by excess trail in your front end. When you have passed the speed where headshake ends the rear bike tire and sidecar tire are slipping at their equlilibrium point. The amount of slip in each tire is based on the amount of traction it has compared to the other, and the amount of toe in set on the sidecar wheel. You can demonstrate this by cranking you toe in and out and you will notice the speed where your head shakes changes. If you have reduced trail it will be much harder to notice, but will still be present, unless you have zero trail. This tire slippage is what causes uneven tire wear on your rear bike and sidecar tires.
You can observe the point where your tires change from tracking to slipping if you lay down fresh tracks on the wet pavement in a parking lot and go back and look at them where you accelerated through the headshake. You will see the relationship of the three tire tracks changed in this speed zone. At slow speeds you will see the bike wheels sharing a single track and the sidecar wheel will have it's own. At speed the bike's front wheel track will move towards the centerline of the rig, not much but enough that it should show in the wet.
Amount of ballast. The location of the ballast, and weight of the sidecar is very important. Think of your sidecar frame as a lever sticking out from the side of the motorcycle. 100 lbs 2 feet out will have the same effect as 50 lbs 4 ft out from the bikes centerline. The same sidecar rigged with a wider track will have the same affect as adding ballast.
Width of rig. Once again think of you sidecar frame as a lever. The same exact chair, set a few inches wider, will require additional lean. As the wind resistance movers further out the lever from the centerline of the bike, the more pull it will exert on the rig.
None of this is suggests how a paticular rig should be set up, only to point out that comparing numbers from one rig to another is near meaningless, unless you try to factor in the differences between the rigs. For numbers to be comparable you would need riders of the same weight on identical rigs with the same tires and passengers, traveling the same roads at the same speeds.
This is no
For sure wind speed and direction has a big effect on pull, especially if you have a substaintial windsheild (drag) on the sidecar. As for my rig, after changing the toe in so there is no more pull to the right, I have not noticed any pull one way or the other all the way to 80 mph. Before changing the toe in the faster I went, the more the rig pulled to the right.
