Subframe Question

Dave, welcome to the world of off-set three wheels. Todays motorcycle are designed with lighter frames, oftem using engine as part of the frame structure, etc. The attachment points on these bikes are not designed to handle the side stresses that sidecars inflict on a bike.

A proper well-designed and built subframe will protect your bike and you from a disasterous happening. 

After riding wash boards in Canada and Alaska with a sidecar rig, I would not want to ride without solid mounts and frame. You are planning a long journey, over-engineer the rig for the worse conditions you might encounter. 

Having a frame member snap in the middle of nowhere does not make for a great ride.

The only motorcycle that was over-engineer for stress that I added a sidecar to, was the first generation Triumph Rocket 3. The British engineers over-designed and over-built what was to be the largest displacement motorcycle offered by any motorcycle manufacturer, 1300 cc.. And even with that bike, I added a stout subframe. The subframe survived what the Alaska Haul Road threw at it but a steel cross member under the body of the sidecar body snapped in two 12 miles north of Coldfoot, Alaska. A trucker offered me a heavy duty ratchet strap to hold the rig together so I could nurse it back down to Fairbanks to have it welded. Back home, I removed the sidecar body and discovered two more frame cracks. The subframe survived, but the sidecar frame took a beating.

A two wheel motorcycle rocks back and forth as you cross rough terrain, basically you and the bike against the road. That rocking motion is lost with a sidecar as your three wheels are on three different pivot point, three different axles. Now it is the road and the machine against you. 

A rough road is much for puniashing for a sidecar rig than to a two wheel motorcycle. 

Hope that helps you decision making. Good luck, hope to see you on the road.

CCjon

www.ridingthehorizon.com

Two points:

CCjon @jan-2, your Triumph Rocket 3 was a 2300cc engine...not a 1300cc...and those of us that know you  also know that was simply a typo error. 

Dave Shultz @dgs331, you need to clarify if this grand adventure you are planning is strictly On Paved Roads, or more of a Dualsport adventure?

Because,  Yamaha doesn't make a dualsport adventure bike in the 1300cc to 1600cc range. 

If it must be a Yamaha,  seriously consider the Super Tenere' 1200....excellent bike for off road AND on paved roads....shaft drive, etc.

Or, the very popular and extremely reliable Honda Africa Twin 1000cc, or the 1100cc.

Additionally, Dave Shultz...in the beginning (1880 to 1915) sidecars were attached to motorcycles haphazardly, meaning any which way they could.

In the following years, known as the Days of Yore (1916 to 1966) some motorcycle manufacturers had lugs built into, or onto the motorcycle frame, to accompany the attachment of a sidecar, i.e. BSA, Norton, Triumph, Indian, and H-D.

In the later years, meaning 1967 and up about 1990, many sidecar were attached to the motorcycle by way of CLAMPS, simply clamped onto the tubular frame of the motorcycle, and as years progressed, the quality of the metal used in these "clamps" actually degenerated, meaning the alloy became a lesser quality.

Which brought us to the thought, and invention of the more modern SUBFRAME used on more than 83.14 % of sidecar attachments to the motorcycle today, for reasons stated above by CCjon @jan-2, and because it was shown that the more modern "clamps" were more deadly than useful.

It is HIGHLY recommend and suggested that a subframe be fabricated for a specific motorcycle, and used to remove stress on the OEM motorcycle framework.

There are a few sidecar manufacturers in the USA that can fabricate and build a subframe for the more modern motorcycles, and there are even fewer independents fabricators that can do the same, although they are not specifically sidecar manufacturers.

Sidecar companies such as TSC/DMC in Donie, Texas is a reliable source for checking on subframe fabrication. Another one is FSC East, and FSC West, as well as Hannigan Sidecars in Murray, Kentucky.

Dave Shultz, point I am making is, WE...the People of the 3rd Wheel, have a LOT of knowledge and information about sidecars, but we also need help from you, giving us as MUCH info as you can, so that we can better help you.

Every finite detail you can share with us, helps us narrow it down to what will work for you.

@miles-ladue I will be traveling two lane blacktop, no off roading planned.  No Interstates either.  Mostly 65mph.  The sidecar will be carrying camping equipment, cameras, computer, etc.  No passengers.  I've had two sidecar rigs back in the 80's.  Both were Velorex 562 cars on Moto Guzzi California II bikes.  One was a standard and one was a convert. Nobody I knew was using a subframe at the time so this is new to me.  My original plan was to use a Victory V92TC but I am concerned about the availability of parts so that is why I am considering a Yamaha.  My current rig, the California Friendship II, is considerably heavier than the Velorex and after a lot of web browsing, I started wondering about subframes.

@jan-2 Good information, thank you.

The Victory is a great machine and not prone to breaking down.  It too was over engineered and would do just fine with the CSC-FII you described.  I Agree about parts availability as its production run was not as long as it should have been (Curse you Polaris for switching everything to Indian!!!)

Carry on and provide pictures along the way, please!

Posted by: @dgs331

↑

@miles-ladue I will be traveling two lane blacktop, no off roading planned.  No Interstates either.  Mostly 65mph.  The sidecar will be carrying camping equipment, cameras, computer, etc.  No passengers.  I've had two sidecar rigs back in the 80's.  Both were Velorex 562 cars on Moto Guzzi California II bikes.  One was a standard and one was a convert. Nobody I knew was using a subframe at the time so this is new to me.  My original plan was to use a Victory V92TC but I am concerned about the availability of parts so that is why I am considering a Yamaha.  My current rig, the California Friendship II, is considerably heavier than the Velorex and after a lot of web browsing, I started wondering about subframes.

Dave @dgs331, that info helps a lot.

Okay, you don't need a dualsport bike, so that opens it up to 3,141.59 motorcycles that are currently on the market, that will work for you.

Preference...shaft drive or chain drive ?

Fuel injected or carb'd ?

Forward(ish) footpeg positioning, or more rearset footpeg positioning ?

You previously mentioned a Yamaha in the 1300cc to 1600cc range....belt drive or shaft drive ?

Other than the FJR1300, which is shaft drive, all others from Yamaha would most likely be belt drive, although a few shafts and chains made it into there.

What about a....2014 Honda CTX-1300..Deluxe ? V-4 engine, fuel injected, shaft drive, 100% reliable, enough power to drag 37 Harleys that have fallen down and they need to be dragged back home, on their sides, or....4 Triumph Rockets that have fallen down, or....93 Royal Enfields, same scenario.

Honda VTX-1800 is fuel injected, whilst the more rideable VTX-1300 is carb'd, both are shaft drive.

The 2014 Honda CTX-1300-Deluxe is the one that comes closest to matching your Moto Guzzi's...same engine configuration, although a V-4 vs the MG's V-2, but the seating is the same, and the Honda CTX-1300 is 100% reliable.

These were only made in 2014, as Honda used up the remaining powertrains left over from the ST-1300's, although the CTX-1300 is slightly detuned for the cruiser CTX-1300 vs the Sport-Touring ST-1300.

Frankly, all BS aside, these 2014 Honda CTX-1300's can be bought for very low prices, considering they were a one year bike, and not all that popular (they would have been much more popular if Honda had given them a chance to be sold for another 3 to 5 years), so you can find a V-4 Honda fuel injected shaft drive bike, close to what the Moto Guzzi was, for around $ 5k to 7K.

See, Dave, we have 99 more questions to go, and then we can direct you to the proper shop to make that subframe  

@miles-ladue Some bikes are better with carbs and some with fuel injection.  I've had both and don't have a real preference.  I have been riding motorcycles 61 years.  Yes, I'm old as dirt.  Well, 75 year old dir anyway.  I have owned just about every marque ever made.  I have owned more Moto Guzzis than any other bike.  I had 13 of them in the garage at one time and two were the sidecar rigs.  My wife was not happy parking in the driveway.

The Cal Friendship II is a very heavy hack.  But, it has lots of room for all the junk I want to take.  I am a professional photographer and I will be working on a coffee table book called On Three Wheels - Stories from the road.  Photos of interesting places and people with a few paragraphse of text to go with it.  Hence, the need for a very reliable machine with easily accessible parts.  My current Victory does not fall into that category.  Relialbe, yes, Parts no.

I do like shaft drive but has seen some posts that say belt is better for a hack.  I have no idea why they say that.  Chain would be my last choice.

Now, the finaly wrench in the works.  Money is an issue.  I (as you might have figured out) am retired and while I acquired a lot of money over the years, I also acquired four ex wives.  Get the picture?  i will be camping and using Bunk-A-Biker while traveling.  Luxuries like hotel rooms are not in the bugdet.  I expect the journed to take at least two years and I will be hitting all 48 contiguous states.  North in the summer, south in the winter and central states in spring and fall.  As I said, back roads and never over 65mph.  Easier on the gas, equipment and my old butt.

I will probably go the dark side on the bike.  The hack is already there.  Changing tires will be required but not as frequently.  

Are we narrowing it down any?

Hay Dave 

I have a nice older lady for sale. 1995 1500SE Goldwing with sidecar listed on complete outfits for sale. Might be worth you having a read =)

Steve

Oh, Dave @dgs331, young man, if you were really old, you would spell it with an E...as in OLDE.

As for photography, contact CCjon @jan-2 on these forums, he is 80 years olde, and is also a photographer, so you two can have something to talk about. CCjon recently set the record for the oldest rider to do the IronButt Association Ultimate Coast to Coast, meaning Prudhoe Bay, Alaska to Key West, Florida, and he did it on his 2018 Honda Goldwing w/Hannigan Classic sidecar.

Oh, and Young Dave, I have been retired for 25 years, as of next month...June 15th, 2001. So I spell it with an E....olde.

But I digress....

WHERE are you located, so I can begin the search for your next bike ?

I still HIGHLY recommend the 2014 Honda CTX-1300, and preferably the Deluxe model of that bike, and they are well know for accepting a Car Tire on the rear wheel, and using a Bridgestone BT-46 motorcycle rear tire on the front wheel, so you can go...Double Darkside.

BTW, that California Friendship ll is a relatively light sidecar in todays sidecar world, as a lot of us have much, much heavier siders, by choice.

AND, as Steve Ives noted above in his post, he has an already ROAD READY sidecar rig that would do everything you want, and carry 100 bags of chips, for LESS money than you buying a separate motorcycle.

MANY of us here know that 1995 Honda Goldwing w/Champion Escort ll that Steve Ives is selling, and I can 100% recommend it.

I just got blacklisted and I don't know why.  

@miles-ladue I tried to reply and got blacklisted.  No reason for that.  Nothing vulgar or even gray.

I simply said I prefer n@ked with a windscreen to lots of plastic.  I live in Palestine, TX I am currently in Carrizozo, NM where I own half a house.  My bike and sidecar are here.  

Dave Shultz @dgs331, I am working on this "blacklisted" thing, behind the scenes, and hope to have you "un-blacklisted" soon.

AND, if you can post, as above, then you are no longer "blacklisted"

@miles-ladue I sent a message to them as well.  Very weird.

Posted by: @dgs331

↑

@miles-ladue I sent a message to them as well.  Very weird.

Dave the "weird" one is you, as...you can clearly see you are posting, you, you, you olde man, so you are not blacklisted....dang it.