--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
replying to #5664
**replying to Post #5673**
>> Using the front brake to initiate a left turn is foreign to me. <> The problem that remains with linked brakes on lighter rigs remains the same. They are not always loaded the same, if at all. <> Muscle memory is one of the main factors involved in a panic stopping situation such as your crash. A common reaction is to brake hard and freeze on the brakes (Push and
pray, as it were). This sounds like what may have occured in your situation. That may be why you were unable to control the rig and turn to the right. <> With an unloaded car and a strong sidecar brake the same thing could have occured due to the locked sidecar wheel simply skidding along the pavement with no braking effect. <<
A locked wheel offers always above 80% of the maximum possible brake power.
This is way above the average solo rider's capabilities if he want's to avoid locking.
The only disadvantage is: a locked tyre isn't steerable any longer and slides tangentially
to the actual direction vector.
** The 80% is still related to what type of road surface the tire is attempting to get a grip on. Yes, a locked wheel , sidecar or otherwise, is just a patch of rubber being drug across the road. Sidecar brakes are not a bad thing as mentioned before. Sidecar brakes are also something that a rider (driver ?) needs to become familiar with on a given rig. The operation of them being inconsitant under varying circumstances is another variable that can get one in trouble if they are counting on them to be the solution to all of their problems.
Many situations on the road can be avoided by DRIVING the rig in conjunction with braking. Braking properly needs to be learned and learned well but braking alone , by itself, is not the total answer. In the extreme it is like blowing the horn to avoid a hazard. In the case you depicted I do not feel you 'froze' at the helm as you were doing much more than locking the brake and hoping for the best. There are limits to what we can and cannot do withthe machines we ride. It is up to each of us to explore those limits under co
Having always subscribed to the notion that - a vehicle with more brakes on it is a good thing - This has been an interesting thread for me.
As I seldom ride my rig without Betty in it my braking requirements, I suppose, are different than the predominantly solo rider with an empty sidecar.
I have a sidecar brake linked to my rear brake on the Harley - works great.
I have a mechanical linkage on the Ural - the Ural seldom runs, and when it does braking requirements for such a slow machine are minimal.
Point being, on a real motorcycle I like the benifit of sidecar brakes - for my particular situation.
FWIW - I have worked hundreds of accidents - car and motorcycle - when you hit the brakes to stop RIGHT NOW they are ALWAYS in a panic mode. Locked and skidding, except of course with ABS.
Train all you want (a good thing!), have all the certificates on the wall you want - when the day comes to STOP RIGHT NOW - you will lock those babies up.
Be safe my friends and do whatever it takes on YOUR bike to make it safe and comfortable for you and your way of riding.
Happy Motorin'
Dean & Betty
Dean , yes , no doubt, most accident scenes will have evidence of locked brakes. Yes, many times this cannot be avoided. But we can only speculate on how many accident scenes never materialized due to a rider practicing and learning the capabilities of his or her rig so he or she was able to avoid that accident altogether. This is what practice is all about..this is what expanding one's riding skill is all about. The possibility of ,when the time comes, to be able to avoid being a part on one of the many accident reports filed every day.
No Doubt,Accidents will continue to happen. It should still be our goal to learn what we can do to avoid them. Sidecar driving skills can be learned so we are not letting our wrong reactions turn something into an accident that could have been avoided in many cases.
You are right ..all the certificates in the world will never help prevent an accident. It is only if the knowledge gained by earning those certificates is put into real world use to the point of controling our actions, and maybe more importantly our reactions, that they can be of any benefit at all.
To evaluate what people will do by the result of an accident that has already happened is useful but it only evaluates the ones who had the accident. The ones who did not have the accident under possibly similar circumstances are the ones who are hard to evaluate even though they may have been the ones who did the right thing under pressure.
Training? :
Lets consider this statement:
"Yep I locked her up and slid right into that truck. Nothing else I could do"
But was there anything else that could be done? Could the wreck have been avoided if he did not 'lock her up'? Was there a chance to steer around the target that was nullified due to lack of steering ability of a locked wheel.Could he have stopped more effeciently if he would have been able to pump the brakes without lacking them up'?
These are questions that should be analized. There is training involved. Many times it has been said that we can control our actions. If we , from training ,know what these actions should be we can control them. This can get someone a certificate or a passing grade in a training session. This is good...BUT...WE CANNOT CONTROL OUR RE-ACTIONS!! These reactions must come natural. Even though proper actions can be taught and it is a good thing, proper reactions cannot be taught apart from practicing the right actions. Proper reactions can be a life or death decision. Practice is the only way to develope them. Without practice we may still have a certificate of some kind on the wall but it is not comforting to only be able to look at it when you are in traction.
Claude,
Very good points!
Also I'm sure it was rather forward of me to say what people WILL do in any given situation - but that's the business I'm in!
Unfortunately I cannot speak of what someone will/has/might do in an "almost accident" because, well, I just don't show up at "almost" or "avoided" situations - I can only speak from accident reconstruction, interviews with victims/witnesses, the scene itself, etc...
Lets agree that training and the proper execution of that training (the part that I see so sorely lacking) would most certainly be of the greatest benifit to ALL of us.
And for everyone - be safe this and every season - a few boring days at my job would be nice for a change!
Happy Motorin'
Dean & Betty
HOG, ISOK, Blue Knights, USCA, PMK
r60rider,
Good choice of topic, revisiting the sidecar brake issue. We pushed a lot of buttons and got a lot of feedback on this visit.
Clemens,
Your description of your experiences, crash and otherwise, also opened up much input. Kudos to you also.
Claude,
You always add much to the mix.
This forum foremat is a great place for all of us to share our views and opinions with others and although our outlooks may differ somewhat we are all striving for the same result, which is safe sidecar operation and enjoyment.
Thanks to all for your entries and Happy Holidays from,
Judy and Lonnie Cook
Northwest Sidecar
nwsidecar@aol.com
Dean wrote:
>>Lets agree that training and the proper execution of that training (the part that I see so sorely lacking) would most certainly be of the greatest benifit to ALL of us.
And for everyone - be safe this and every season - a few boring days at my job would be nice for a change!<<
Amen my friend you got it. Training and practicing is THE key. This is true whether we are on a sidecar for the first time or been on them for 30 years. There is always always something new to learn or an old skill to sharpen every time we are on the road.
And Dean, I do hope your job is boring over this holiday season.
Best wishes to all,
Claude
Claude re. the connector lever between Sidecar/Bike brake levers. I have thought about adding one to my setup but with my size 14/15 Boots it is almost impossable to not hit both, I would have to try real hard not to get both in a pannic stop. If I do add a Connector between them it will be a simple bolted or welded lever from the Sidecar lever under the Bike lever so that the bike lever will always get both and the Sidecar could be operated on it's own if I roll my foot far enough to the right side.
As it is I do use the Front Brake to setup left handers most of the time and the Sidecar Brake for Right handers on occasion. If I do need to do breaking in corneres it is always with a combination of all 3. The GL-1800's Linked Brakes help a lot vs most of the non-linked bikes I've had in the past and the extra option with the independent Sidecar Brake makes it just that much better.
Then there is the lack of Brakes on our KwikKamp that will be the next project to correct. Getting the whole thing stopped with an extra 400 to 500 lbs on the rear with the Wife behind and three Cattle Dogs in the Hack can be a real job.
Jerry
Jerry, I put a brake setup on my rig just as you were describing. I mounted an auxillary master cylinder for the sidecar, with a brake lever that runs under my rear brake pedel on the bike. When I apply the rear bike brake, it in turn applys the sidecar brake, or I can roll my foot and operate the sidecar brake independently. Works well (so far). Just have to make sure they are adjusted properly. Ride safe, Ron
The idea of ??contacting a brake on the sidecar is a good year for many people. The fact that it can be used separately to enter the right-handers, and is also used in conjunction with the main obstacle. The problem is that if the pilot does not use both brakes together on a regular basis, will more than likely not use them in a panic situation. This is a device called a lever, which connects the two pedals, why not combine them automatically in the correct position. Do not get me wrong, I'm still in favor of a brake part, if the brake is mounted on the chair.
