Duck
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Keep the rubber side down!
Hal,
I believe it was David Hough who took credit for coining the phrase/word "counter steering or countersteering".
I think it was incorporated in some of his writings about the time he prepared the "Driving a URAL Sidecar" manual (For the two Bobs who had URAL America at the time) This manual was later massaged into the "Yellow Book" after removing the URAL specific phrasing and adding a glossy cover.
Lonnie
According to this article, the term countersteering goes back to the early 1970's, and a more extensive analysis would probably show it to go back to at least the 1950s or much earlier:
Ref: http://thunderace.scee.sony.co.uk/history/msg41840.html
This subject, as always, is causing quite a debate. I suspect, however,
that we haven't yet identified all of the relevant influences.
Whilst I agree with Otto that moving the bars will offset the wheel centre
lines from the point of balance and cause the bike to fall to the side, I
don't think that the effect will be strong enough to explain the
countersteering phenomenon.
The bars are only moved very slightly and the steering geometry will cause
the front wheel to move only a couple of millimetres to the side. The
inertia of the bike and this very small offset will not allow the bike to
lean as quickly as it does.
I suspect that the inertia of the spinning front wheel presents a relatively immovable object against which the forces applied to the handlebars can push thereby forcing the bike over rather than allowing it to drop under the forces of gravity.
I first heard about countersteering from an article in Motor Cycle News (or
it could have been Motor Cycle) in the early 1970s. I think I kept the
cutting (sad, eh?) and will try to find it. I think, however, it suggests
that the centrifugal action of "steering the wrong way" causes the initial
lean but, as with a lot of things that you can read, I think this is
bollocks. It could, of course, be that all of the suggestions are correct
and, working complementarily, each provides a contribution to obtain the
desired effect.
If the process had a simple explanation I'm sure that it would be freely
available and fully understood by everyone but, because it is as complex as
the aerodynamics of a bumble-bee, it is the source of much discussion.
I know it works and am happy to accept that. Whilst a full explanation
would be interesting, I can quite easily live without it and continue to
enjoy its effects in ignorance.
Chris Landscheit
=====================
Certainly, David Hough did not coin the term. He did use it quite extensively.
Claude,
I just got back from a 2,600 miler to the Griffith Park Rally in LA. Lot's of curve practice with the new rig. I took the Pacific Coast highway down and came back up on the Nevada side of the Sierra Nevada's. From sea level to over 10,000 feet. Three wheels down all the way. That's how it should be on a well balanced rig on a long run. Who wants to hang off for ten hours a day? Not this old fart.
With just my luggage in the boat I was still able to take almost all curves at ten over the posted speed with no lifting of the sidecar wheel. Just a little upper torso leaning into the turns.
One thing I was thinking about is how we've never explained to the newbies the need to keep the arms relaxed and try not to oversteer the rig. On all types of road surfaces I tend to keep my upper body erect as the bike changes attitude from differences in the road surface, camber, crown and slopes. This "looseness" really keeps me from road fatigue after long hours on the road. I will lean my upper body into the turns a bit but keep a light hold on the bars. Does that work for you?
One more thing, I just love those raked trees. They got a lot of use on California Highway 1.
Lonnie
Lonnie: I concur 100% with everthing you said as it applies to normal roads and twisties and the open roads. I have found no need for any extreme body gryrations but do concur with the natural lean motions and to keep it loose. Also that one can use the speed limit signs as a good guide and with care even exceed them just a tad on occasion.
I would however caution that to be extremely cautious when making those damn cloverleaf approaches found on intersecting and approaching interstates and tollways where posted speeds may be often down as low as 30, 25, 20, or even 15m often with decreasing righthanders. These can be extremely risky and volitile even for 4-wheelers and 18-wheelers and cement trucks. We have already had at least a couple of fatalities with sidecarists this year alone on this type of curve. And I have personally seen 18-wheelers and cement trucks on their side in these type of curves.
I mention this as I found this type of curve in my own neck of the woods where the curve began as a 30 mph then at once it was a 15 mph before you could spit. Damn hard in a car, almost impossible in a sidecar rig. So be extra careful when approaching any curve of this kind no matter what vehicle you are in.
I seldom really hang off and then only when goofing around. It is simply not what it is cracked up to be. On a real light rig it can make a little more difference but then maybe we should get the rig balanced a little better to begin with 🙂
Anyhow...I do lean my body quite a bit when cornering hard. It feels better as it counteracts the cornering forces trying to move you off the seat in the wrong direction. Knees tight on tank and leaning the body into the turn works for me.
I also agree with being loose so to speak. Straight arming it and death grips on the bars do nothing for control of a rig in the twisties.
Oh, and if anyone thinks they will 'save the day' by hanging off AFTER you get into trouble FORGET IT! Once the rig gets to a certain point when you slide off the seat to the right the equal and opposite reaction on the rig can be pushing it to the left...result? You just dug your hole a little deeper!
We do not all practice what we preach but it is best to take a late apex at a speed where you feel pretty comfortable in the turn and once you feel you can see on through the turn GAS IT ! This will keep YOU in control of what is going on. Overcooking it going into a turn is a killer. It is so much easier to slow down,if needed, while you are acelerating than to try and gather up a rig that is already into a turn way over it's head.
There is more to this if one wants to run really hard but if one adheres to this type of simple advice and leaves most of the gymnastics to the olympic hopefuls they will do well enough to keep most solo bikes on their toes if the rig is a well balanced one. To put it bluntly most of that hanging off stuff is a fairly tale and if anyone wants to ride down the parkway with me just drop me an email.
One word of warning on those yellow speed limit signs. They are far from consistant. A 15 mph yellow sign in ,say, Pa. may be a 30 mph yellow sign in W.Va. ...for the same type and size of turn. Check it out sometime they cannot be totally trusted as a suggested speed from state to sate or area to area.
I'm going to assume the phrase "hanging off" means hanging your body way over in a turn as a balast to keep the rig from flipping.
Entering a turn or running through twisties, does the rig feel like it pushes on entry, or another way to say it, does it feel like it's scuffing or skidding the front tire as you're actually in the turn? I got it in my head that if you WANT to run fast, you'll need to break hard and straight, find a good feel in the corner and hammer it coming out.
Many rig swil push coming off a left hander with the throttle on.
We may be getting a little overboard here. It is essential practice after reading some good info like Hal's books and procede with care. Take a class if possible too. Then practice in a safe place..AND take baby steps while learning a little each time out.
Do not try and 'pitch' a rig into a left hander to get the rear out until you KNOW what that particular rig is likely to do. You DO NTO want to lift the rear wheel of the bike off the ground as there is a chance it will not come back down on th esame side it started from!
Hanging off , pitch the rig, be loose, etc. are all phrases and slang I need to learn, cuz if I can’t ride worth a toot I wanna be able to at least talk the talk (fake it!!)
Great posts by everyone and very informative!!!!!!!Thanks!!!!!!!!!
All points should be observed by all viewers novice and experienced!!!!!!
However each rig reacts differently to some degree and everyone needs to know the limits of their own rig. They also need to fully know the limits of their driving skills. ESP downhill right hand curves.
The more roads you encounter the more skills you develop.
In addition to the above comments and references that we commonly refer too,the 2005 Feb & March issues of BMW ON magazines have nice segments on sidecars and sidecar driving skills.
PS Sounds like Lonnie had a great trip.
Hal,
After some thought, I remembered that David H's phrase was not "Counter steering".
His phrase was "Reversionary steering". Meant to describe the process of reverting to "Countersteering" the motorcycle when the sidecar wheel was lofted, as opposed to direct steering the machine when all three wheels were on the ground. Steering it as a lopsided single track vehicle.
Can I remove my foot now?
Lonnie
Well, yes, and no. He has used the term countersteering on many occasions and in many many reports and stories and magazines. I hesitate to speak for him because he has rather peculiar ideas, but it is my understanding that it is idea that it is his belief that as soon as the sidecar wheel separates from the road surface for any reason, whether going in a straight line as the result of hitting a bump, for example, or whether the result of overturning forces caused from too aggressive righthanders, that the very moment that contact with the road surface is lost that one must at once start with counter steering efforts. However, this concept, no matter how many times it has been stated, has never been demonstrated, nor proven, nor related to any physcial laws of science.
What we do know is that with the sidecar wheel slightly airbourne that one steers normally just as if the sidecar wheel was actually on the ground. We also know that if the sidecar wheel is sligthtly airbourne and that if we then turn the bars to the LEFT that we will at once go to the LEFT demonstrating that we are steering normally. Those who have gone off to the left in a right hand turn might have been trying to countersteer - who knows? It seems very strange indeed.
What we also know is that it is only if we get the sidecar way way way up into the air so that the center of gravity or the center of mass is then directly OVER the tipover line between the front wheel and the rear wheel of the motorcycle then at that very UNSTABLE condition (for a sidecar rig) we will finally be in a position to apply "countersteering".
This last condition applies to ANY 2-track vehicle from a car to a SUV to a cement mixer to an 18-wheeler all of which have been effectively countersteered for various movie stunts or parades. In fact, one of our members used to perform just this stunt at Easter parades in Illinois back in the 1970s. And Pop Dryer and many of the old timers were well known for their ability to "fly" the chair for public parades. But this is a skill best left for those who will perform at parades. It really has no place in the normal street driving - just as they do not teach it in driver's ed in high school or in truckers school - just because it can be done is no reason to teach it.
On the other hand
The 'ARGUMENT' is about when steering reversion takes place. If anyone feels that it is when the sidecar wheel leaves the ground all you have to do is ride in a right hand circle in a safe place until the sidecar wheel comes up and then turn left. If countersteering means you steer left to go right, as on a solo bike at speed, you will find out real quick that ,if you do this esxercise, you WILL NOT turn right when you steer left. The sidecar wheel WILL come down right away and you WILL go to the left.
As Hal says there is no real need for this on the street. Learn how to corner safely and increase speed through practice. You do not have to wory with this steering reversion stuff.
I have a feeling that if we put this much energy/analysis into the mechanics of walking, we'd all be paralysed.
Good point Ernie, you grits eating bugger you...LOL. But, we all had to crawl before we walked. Difference being that we were basically designed to walk and were not designed to drive sidecars. I have no clue what that means but felt it sounded pretty good anyhow.
