Rain grooves and wind... ?

Looks like it's time to move up the food chain bikewise or move back down to the flatland with the Vespa.
The rain grooves are a problem with many lightweight autos using radials. My brides' Accord has a problem with them while my Silverado shorty doesn't.

L.

This is my 5th scooter, my dream bike, and I'm not done perfecting it yet. I'm a scooter chick for life (though I respect pretty much any other two-wheelers). 🙂 And as much as I wish we could move, that's not happening anytime soon.

Just wondering what some other advantages there might be in sidecar ownership that they can't really tell you on the spec sheets.

Witch - 6/10/2011 12:22 AM

.... I'm a scooter chick for life.... 🙂

Hi Witchie.

What few rain grooves we have encountered did not un-nerve me as much as when riding a 2-wheeler because the fear of falling is diminished. However, the smaller diameter tires on most smaller scooters could amplify the wiggle effect.

There are two situations where wind really affects driving a sidecar rig: The 1st is a headwind, which can impact your speed and your gas mileage, both up to 20% or more; the 2nd is a hard wind from the left will cause a rig pull right with the wind.

Correctly modifying the steering geometry significantly reduces the annoyance of the rain groove wiggle and the wind push, as well as makes steering in general much easier.

Considering you live in an area with -- or at least close to -- some "hills" with big winds, you might consider bumping the cc's of your scooter, for example, Jena's Burgman 650 with Texas Ranger sidecar will outrun my Sportster and is a sweet driving rig with the recently installed modified triple trees (I still need to post a follow-up re: installation and results):

Or Avanell's Burgman 650 with Inda sidecar (her 2nd scooter rig):

Send me a PM if you would like to talk with either Jena or Avanell about their sidecar experience.

Google up the Stella. The factory offers a sidecar. The whole package is very unique. Stella's now come with a 4 stroke motor. Can't have too much info. Cheers. JW

Here are other example, but of a 250 CC Honda scooters.
Both affected by rain grooves though I think the tires are larger and wider than the Vespa.
Weight about the same as the Vespa 250. Great powerwise for in town and secondary road travel where freeway speeds are not needed. Sidecar drops mileage range around 25% due to weight, wind resistance and expanded frontal area. Also drops maximum speeds attainable for the same reasons.
Sudden side blasts of wind (50+) can push the rig into another lane at speed due to large exposed profile and light weight. The smaller tire footprints offer less lateral traction which may help add to this phenomenon.

Lonnie

Hi Witch,

I rode scooters near Colorado Springs when I lived there. A couple of things about sidecars, scooters and Colorado; performance drop off with the added weight and drag of a sidecar may be more than you want to make. The thin air already puts a hurt on scooter performance. The altitude and power charts say that an engine will lose about 25% power at 7000 ft. The other part is that the added width of the rig will reduce the scooter's ability to weave around in traffic and park in small spaces. Scooterworks.com has sidecars listed at $2100. The same Cozy sidecar at the distributed site lists for $2995.

SwampFox, I'd like to hear about your experiences of your burgman vs. sportster (also with sidecar I assume). I've been watching CL for both with an eye to putting a sidecar on it. Is your sporty an 883 or 1200? What kind of sidecar do you have on it? What's the performance comparison between the two?

Lonnie, have you ridden 250 scooters without a sidecar? How much does the performance suffer? When I had my Kymco 250, it would get down the freeway ok without a sidecar but I'm pretty sure a sidecar would have forced me back on to two lane roads.

Having ridden for so long, I'm pretty good at being able to avoid freeways. I don't honestly like riding on freeways to begin with. It's boring.

My scooter is fuel-injected, so it doesn't have a problem with altitude around here. In fact, the bike can handle the thin air even better than I can (I grew up in Texas).

I know about the Stella, and I've heard very little bad about it. Don't know much about the 4-stroke version though, as most dealers don't even have them yet. I am wary of even considering getting a larger scooter. The Vespa is on the edge of being too large for me to handle safely, and I can only get the balls of my feet down on it. I know that doesn't matter for a sidecar rig, but I'm silly and like to be able to know a bike before I do a lot of modification to it. I wouldn't be able to do so with a bigger scoot. The only 2 that I know for sure that I could put my feet down on are the Honda Helix (which doesn't have fuel injection) and the Honda Silverwing (which is an awsome bike, but I'm just not interested in). As I've said, I've already done quite a bit of research.

For the Vespa, I'd be looking at the Via from Texas Sidecar, unless I could find someone nearby who's already done a modern Vespa mount with a Cozy Rocket.

punkozuna - 6/10/2011 12:30 PM

... SwampFox, I'd like to hear about your experiences of your burgman vs. sportster (also with sidecar I assume). I've been watching CL for both with an eye to putting a sidecar on it. Is your sporty an 883 or 1200? What kind of sidecar do you have on it? What's the performance comparison between the two?....

punkozuna, our Sporster is a 2002 883R rigid engine mount. There is a good discussion re: Sportster's and such here: http://www.sidecar.com/mbbs22/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=8979&posts=19&highlight=100kmh&highlightmode=1#M56007 . Where I posted these comments: The little 883 rigid mount Sportster keeps up with traffic -- you will not pass may folks, and it will run all day up to 62mph ... but vibration sets in above that threshold. There are only two modifications to the bike: A smaller front pulley gearing the bike down 4% with big benefits, plus an after market air cleaner+re-jet with stock pipes.

Since that post we have installed 5-degree raked triple tree and the Sportster is now an all-day sweet handling rig. subject to the above limitations. Jena's Burgman 650, now also with raked triple tree, has about similar rated horsepower as the 883R, but it's more comfortable and the fuel injected twin much more "flexible" - that is, a broader torque band - and the CVT transmission is always in the correct "gear". And the CVT accelerates more smoothly and quickly.

Thanks for the info and link Swamp Fox. Very informative. For some reason,
I have a fascination with both Sportsters and Burgmans (Burgmen?).

Dave,
The Reflex and Helix both do quite well keeping up with trafficas solos. Hacked they are primarily relegated to the back roads and urban use.
They'll handle secondary roads about like a URAL rig pace (only much smoother).

FYI: I have a dandy 2002 Sportster 883 Hugger for sale on the Boise CL.

Lonnie

As regards to wind, I have a Honda Aero with a Kenna, and a DR650 carrying a Ural. Where I live on the big Island, we have what is called the
kohala winds. When the trade winds hit Kohala mountain they increase in velocity to sometimes 40 knots. The DR650 is tall and light weight and very dangerous on open roads in those conditions. A sudden gust or change of direction in wind can nearly blow the machine out from under me.
Winds in mountain areas change direction often as they are shaped by the surrounding terrain, sometimes being funneled through changes in the land that can more than double wind velocity in an instant. Add to this the hazard that going off a mountain road often means a serious drop on one side and rocks on both sides. Your lightweight scooter either with or without the sidecar is going to be a plaything for these winds. No offense intended but if you want to ride a sidecar you need to get a heavier rig or move to flatter land. You could easily become a statistic for wind driven accidents.
My heavier Honda with Kenna sits lower and weighs at least 250 pounds more than the DR. It is not invulnerable to these Kohala winds but it is much safer in them. Still there are days when I do not use the Kohala mountain road because of wind. Even the road down the coast to Kona can be a chore for the Honda on such days. Living in mountains, I also have lived in mountains in Idaho, Oregon,and Washington, leaves you at the vagaries of the weather which can be a very dominant force.

Phelonius

I generally will not ride when the winds are gusting over 35mph, and if I must, I will take neighborhood roads only in town that are sheltered more by trees and such. We do get winds of 90mph or more here, and I'm not stupid enough to go out into them. The winds here rarely change direction that much. It's usually a constant cross-wind from the east or west.

Hack'n - 6/13/2011 9:52 AM

Dave,
The Reflex and Helix both do quite well keeping up with trafficas solos. Hacked they are primarily relegated to the back roads and urban use.
They'll handle secondary roads about like a URAL rig pace (only much smoother).

FYI: I have a dandy 2002 Sportster 883 Hugger for sale on the Boise CL.

Lonnie

Nice looking bike! When I get one, it'll be a rubber mount 1200. Guess I'd better start saving my pennies. Also, a hugger or low model isn't good for me.

re: the 250 scooters with sidecar - I suspected as much. my Kymco 250 was able to keep up with freeway traffic in Louisiana but not much reserve power. A sidecar is bound to drop the speed below a reasonable speed.