Guys, guys, cool it! with 46 years riding experience, I am well aware of the risks involved in motorcycling and have also learned to accept them.
It just gets me riled when someone multiplys the risk by doing something inherently over risky.
I know S*** can happen easily in every day life..just dont accelerate the risk, like dancing in the shower, playing dodgeball with the cars when crossing the street, over cooking curves, without knowing whats around them, etc.
bottom line... its your life, so do what you want with it .I'm done trying to help a few misguided SC riders. they got a death wish..so be it.
Experienced SC riders very well know of the danger involved with too much weight shifting to the left on the bike on right turns , and STILL say its OK, with a properly balanced rig. trhere is no 'properly balanced rig' that allows safe operation with a passenger on the pillion. that must mean set the lean with driver and passenger on, so the bike leans to the right, strap your passenger down so he/she cant move in an emergency.
I cant believe SC instructors say it s ok to do this.
Originally written by RedMenace on 9/1/2006 9:02 AM
BobZ, I did not specifically mention how you set your bike up and I did not say your practices are unsafe.
I said there are better places to put heavy loads than the back of the bike. You have more choices with a sidecar and handling will usually be improved by placing the weight inside the sidecar aft of the forward tipover line and as low as you can get it. The right saddlebag is certainly a better place for the battery than the left saddlebag. Better still would be the trunk of the sidecar or the sidecar chassis between the bike and the hack. The same is true for the extra fuel tank.
That doesn't mean where you suggest placing it is a bad compromise. Depends on the bike, depends on the driver...
Do keep an eye on your rear frame loop and rear shocks, and drive carefully, Bob 😉
OK Vernon, Noted. I thought you were specifically talking about my setup.
This doesnt pertain to you , but Someone else also mentioned the large cooler i strapped down on my SC luggage rack. sort of a cut down for it, as far as handling.
that cooler only weighs 30 pounds , loaded with our clothes, sleeping bags, and air matress.[no ice. beer, soda or food in it] yes, it hangs out the rear of my SC, but it seems it is much stabler and safe the the others who mount 10 gal gas tanks on the back of the SC, or have a 10 Gal tank in bottom rear of their SC, behind the axle. the 10 gal of gas will weigh in at over 70 pounds hanging out the back.
Originally written by Bob in Wis on 9/1/2006 7:13 AM
...I cant believe SC instructors say it s ok to do this.
BobZ, I actually agree with you in principle-The class I teach is a novice class and I do not recommend riding with a passenger pillion.
I just think a little common sense can be applied here.
IF you have enuf experience to appreciate the affects a pillion will have on YOUR rig,
IF YOUR rig is an inherently stable machine, IF your passenger can be relied upon to follow instructions and remain alert, IF you modify your driving to compensate for the handling deficiencies imposed by less than ideal weight distribution, IF you modify your suspension settings and ballast to compensate, you can safely ride three up or with a pillion. It is not something I recommend, it is not something a beginner to sidecars should do, it is less than ideal, but I believe the risks can be safely managed.
Similar compromises can be made regarding carrying things like extra fuel, ice chests, that cool chuck wagon box someone recently posted, extra light rigs without ballast- Sidecaring is all about compromise. Beginners should stick with the basics and not make grand plans or big changes before they have the experience to anticipate how those changes may affect safety and handling. More seasoned pilots should assume they may have overlooked something and take things very slow and carefully when trying something new or outside the box.
If you read the link I posted with my first reply to this topic, you know I did a dualsport event 3 up with a pillion. We did over 100 miles, all sorts of surfaces, speeds from a walk to 60+ mph. Very aggressive riding, all wheels off the ground over the whoops. It was fun, we were in control, we never even had " a moment". Vince did roll his sidecar, but he had a passenger in the sidecar only. My pillion and sidecar passenger really got religion about shifting thier weight into the corners after witnessing that! My experience, Bob, is it can be safely done. It is not akin to having a death wish.
This discussion isn't much different from the airhead mechanic you are so upset with who has posted that sidecars are dangerous and should not be allowed or promoted(very rough paraphrase, but I am sure you know who I mean). His statements were not without foundation, he just took his argument to a ridiculous extreme. The risks are there, they should be recognized and managed. The rewards are well worth the risks(to me). Practice makes perfect 🙂
Hey Mike...are we what you refer to as Obese??? Yup, Yup
Nope, I ain't obese. My six pack just turned into a keg. :0)
Originally written by RedMenace on 9/1/2006 6:56 PM
Originally written by Bob in Wis on 9/1/2006 7:13 AM
...I cant believe SC instructors say it s ok to do this.BobZ, I actually agree with you in principle-The class I teach is a novice class and I do not recommend riding with a passenger pillion.
I just think a little common sense can be applied here.
IF you have enuf experience to appreciate the affects a pillion will have on YOUR rig,
IF YOUR rig is an inherently stable machine, IF your passenger can be relied upon to follow instructions and remain alert, IF you modify your driving to compensate for the handling deficiencies imposed by less than ideal weight distribution, IF you modify your suspension settings and ballast to compensate, you can safely ride three up or with a pillion. It is not something I recommend, it is not something a beginner to sidecars should do, it is less than ideal, but I believe the risks can be safely managed.OK, Vernon , I agree with you here. it all depends on 'IF'.
Keep up with the good work in your classes, and roide safe!
One has to look at the problem of overloading the tug too. For example, a Harley FLxx has only about 400 pounds load capacity. If you have a 250 pound rider, then figure in about one third of the sidecars weight is carried by the tug, you've got about 50 pounds load capacity left for that passenger.
The cause of this stupidity is that the "ride behind" devotees are still thinking like bikers instead of 'hackers. When you've got a nice comfey seat just to the side that's more protected from the weather that you can even fall asleep in, use it.
Diana,
I believe the object of these Forums is to inform, not condemn.
"Stupidity", ignorance, and having a different opinion are not synonymous.
Maybe that seat next door is full of camping gear or two golf bags with carts. What then?
Lonnie
Depends of the weights of the cargo and passenger and the available space. On my R80ST+Motorvation Spyder there's about 200 kilograms of weight capacity available. I and the hack have used 130 kilos of that, and anything I put in the hack will be split about 1/3rd to the tug. Putting 30 kilos of golf gear in the hack will leave only 60 kilos capacity on the tug, and most adults weigh more than that. With 120 kilos sidecar weight and 400 kilos tug weight we'd be right on the edge of the 30% of tug weight the sidecar needs for safe handling. With a heavier than 60 kilo passenger they'd have to ride in the sidecar and we could tie down the golf gear across the lower sidecar struts or on the tug's rear rack. Camping gear is more bulky than heavy, but between the Spyder's trunk and the tug's removable saddlebags and rear rack I've always had more than enough space.
The BMW's excellent weight capacity, making it capable of carrying it's own weight, makes this sort of versatility possible. Other tugs, some weighing twice as much, often have less carrying capacity.
Originally written by Hack'n on 9/3/2006 2:01 PM
Diana,
I believe the object of these Forums is to inform, not condemn."Stupidity", ignorance, and having a different opinion are not synonymous.
Maybe that seat next door is full of camping gear or two golf bags with carts. What then?
Lonnie
get a trailer if you got too much 'stuff'.
How cool is that when you pull into the country club parking lot, and you and your wife climb out off the bike and out of the SC, and unload the golf stuff from the trailer! super!! no reason to overload the bike suspension.
I wonder how Tom Cutter feels about towing a trailer with a moto, let alone with a sidecar combo?
LOL
Originally written by RedMenace on 9/4/2006 12:39 AM
I wonder how Tom Cutter feels about towing a trailer with a moto, let alone with a sidecar combo?
LOL
Oh, JeeZ, Vernon,!! don't open that can o' worms!!
Hack'beemer wrote: "Depends of the weights of the cargo and passenger and the available space. On my R80ST+Motorvation Spyder there's about 200 kilograms of weight capacity available. I and the hack have used 130 kilos of that, and anything I put in the hack will be split about 1/3rd to the tug. Putting 30 kilos of golf gear in the hack will leave only 60 kilos capacity on the tug, and most adults weigh more than that. With 120 kilos sidecar weight and 400 kilos tug weight we'd be right on the edge of the 30% of tug weight the sidecar needs for safe handling. With a heavier than 60 kilo passenger they'd have to ride in the sidecar and we could tie down the golf gear across the lower sidecar struts or on the tug's rear rack. Camping gear is more bulky than heavy, but between the Spyder's trunk and the tug's removable saddlebags and rear rack I've always had more than enough space."
Let me add a bit of fuel to the fire here.
It is a well known fact that recommended weight capacities are a part of a disclaimer by Mfgr's. to escape product liability claims. This will also apply to the sidecar and excessive accessory disclaimers. How do sidecar mfgr's. discern the capacity of their products? Rocket science? By throwing in a load and seeing where the suspension settles? Reading the numbers off the tire for weight capacity? If mechanical engineers are in the loop their usual safety factor in the past has been 4 to 1, which allows for stress, fatigue, wear, impact, etc. With a well maintained rig that seems like a fairly loose envelope that some might safely push the boundries of.
Weight capacity of vehicles can be changed drastically by things such as: larger wheels, types of tires, increased spring and shock capacity, beefier torsion bars, sway bars and redesigned frames and bodies to better balance weight loading. Then comes ballast and weight balance loading.
Like a lot of contraversial issues in sidecaring, there are to many variables involved here for a single answer to all of the safe loading possibilities.
The drivers abilities must also be factored into the mix.
No panacea, no one size fits all.
Lonnie
Well Lonnie, I've held the highest class CDL for the last couple decades and have covered close to 100,000 miles with a hack with no accidents. I know from my trucking experience that the allowable gross weight of my rig is the lowest of the statuatory weight limits, tire capacity, and the manufacturer's weight rating. Doesn't matter what overloading I think is OK, or the guys at the bar think is OK. I've found that most vehicles when loaded beyond the maufacturer's limits handle like pigs, and can be downright dangerous. In fact, I can think of a few that were downright scary when they were loaded to only 80 or 90 percent of rated weight limits.
So sure. I could load 4 big people and 100 kilos of tools on my R80ST+Spyder. But it'd handle like a Harley, and I know what guage tubing the frame is and I wouldn't push it beyond what BMW rates it for. Motorvation doesn't give my hack a weight rating, but at over 80 kilos in the hack most of the suspension travel is used up, so I don't load over that. Even at those weights I had two subframes bend, but Motorvation made me a braced subframe and fiberglassed it into the tub and it's holding up fine. The next shock fitted to the sidecar will be stiffer so I can trust it with a bit more weight, and with 100 kilos in the hack I'll still be well within the tires weight rating. But if it doesn't feel right, I won't try carrying 100 kilos in the hack.
