Those that are driving a Harley Ultra or Classic with HD sidecar are you running a raked tree. The reason I ask is many that have been driving this set up and some very nice dealers in sidecars and raked tree business say since the HD sidecar is a ridged frame to run a raked tree is dangerous. One real nice dealer told me he would sell what ever I wanted but did not recommend it on this setup instead of trying to sell me something which you do not see much this day and age. They all so told me HDs old adjustable trees did not have much rake and worked fine. Need others opinion please.
Thanks
Jeff
46u - 8/28/2012 7:03 AM
Those that are driving a Harley Ultra or Classic with HD sidecar are you running a raked tree. The reason I ask is many that have been driving this set up and some very nice dealers in sidecars and raked tree business say since the HD sidecar is a ridged frame to run a raked tree is dangerous. One real nice dealer told me he would sell what ever I wanted but did not recommend it on this setup instead of trying to sell me something which you do not see much this day and age. They all so told me HDs old adjustable trees did not have much rake and worked fine. Need others opinion please.
Thanks
Jeff
I no longer have a sidecar but I've owned three Harleys with Harley sidecars in the past 20 odd years. Although I never changed to raked trees, I've talked to enough people who have and it's clear that a raked tree set on a sidecar rig is fine with a Harley and Harley sidecar. I always used the standard trees with a steering damper.
The type of frame makes no difference whatsoever as to the type of trees that you can use. The Harley sidecars with standard trees/trail and a damper are very stable when set up properly with sufficient weight over the sidecar wheel. The suggestion that raked trees might be dangerous is a carryover that comes from the Harley-Davidson sidecar manual (99485-XX). There is a warning in the manual against changing the trees because they know that people will eventually remove the sidecar, either temporarily or permanently and running a solo bike with reduced trail from modified trees can be dangerous. I can vouch for this a I've ridden such a solo. In fact, that's the main reason that I never changed the trees - I would periodically remove the sidecar to ride solo again. Also, changing the trees and possibly the tubes is a miserable, time-consuming job.
The Harley trees are a bit less expensive that the replacement trees from various sources. The Harley Tri-Glides, that I have also ridden, do in fact have 2" longer fork tubes to compensate for the fact that the machine would probably be a bit lower wiithout them. I can't say that this is needed on a standard solo bike for conversion to a sidecar rig. I understand that people have gone to reduced trail trees without changing the tubes. More research would be needed to make sure.
I once owned a '47 Knucklehead that had used a sidecar. The bike came with the OEM adjustable trees. They built those up to the end of the Shovelhead era as IIRC. That was a nice way of handling the issue. Unfortunately, they were a completely different design from the late model FLs which have the triple tree stem forward of the tube openings. That had something to do with handling, and, although I could never figure that out, I have long since given up on attempting to understand all that HD does.
Happy Trails! 🙂
gnm109 - 8/28/2012 5:30 PM
I once owned a '47 Knucklehead that had used a sidecar. The bike came with the OEM adjustable trees. They built those up to the end of the Shovelhead era as IIRC. That was a nice way of handling the issue. Unfortunately, they were a completely different design from the late model FLs which have the triple tree stem forward of the tube openings. That had something to do with handling, and, although I could never figure that out, I have long since given up on attempting to understand all that HD does.
Happy Trails! 🙂
I know about the earlier adjustable trees they stopped in the 80s. Been riding and working on HDs for 40 plus years but this is the first time I messed with a sidecar. Since I do not have both here to compare but was told the old HD adjustable trees did not have near the rake the trees they sell now do.
This is a email I revived from a person that has been doing sidecars for years. I have had other HD sidecar riders that have been driving their rigs for 30 plus years say similar things. I do not know and is why I am asking.
Hi Jeff,
Yes, I can't recommend putting the different trees on the bike with the Harley sidecar for the reason that the bike stills jiggles around . You can solid mount the car but it won't ride very nice and will still shake around when the wheel gets bumped and tips the sidecar up/down. It can lead to some 'interesting' steering feedback and can lead to some serious headshake. If it were mine, I would not install them. The original adjustable trees from Harley don't change the trail as much as any other aftermarket tree does (which are designed for rigid mount sidecars with the wheel being suspended). They allow for a smaller change in steering feel without the drastic change that will make your bike a handful to operate. Straight up advice for safety sake and keeping some cash in your pocket. Let me know if you have any other questions.
Regards,
Here is part of a PM I received.
Hi Jeff:
I am running that rig and I have been told the same thing. Something about losing control if the car hits a big bump or hole in the road and causes the bike to lean too far.
The Harley with Harley sidecar is a very nice-handling rig. I've ridden many a mile on one and never had any handling problems. Once they are set up properly as to toe-in and lean, they are docile and very easy to handle. The only issues I ever had were with very heavily- crowned country roads. Since there is no electric lean available, the handling can be made more difficult under such conditions.
For some reason, people like to point out that Harleys are no good, their sidecars are no good and they have rigid, rigid, rigid, rigid frames, over and over again. I don't listen to that stuff anymore. If you don't like a Harley sidecar, For Heaven's sake, buy something else, just quit talking about them. I mean, who cares?
If you (46U) have been riding Harleys for a long time, you won't have any trouble at all adding a harley sidecar. The great thing about them was ( I say was because they are now fading into the past) that they have fittings that are simply perfect. No if's ands or buts. They just fit.
Once you get one on, you can add little things like I did here and there to improve your experience. The earliest tub had canvas straps for that purpose. I used friction dampers or tube shocks and made the sidecar tub very stable. At one point I even built my own reverse which operated on the rear wheel with a winch motor and a 24 VDC conversion to get the speed up. It cost me about $200. I think it's too expensive to spend $1,500 for a Chanpion or other type for a reverse. That's out of my league for something that isn't used every day.
You are only limited by your own ingenuity. If I ever get another Sidecar, it would be a Harley, without a doubt. The reason I sold mine was my leg got so much better in the past five years that I can now ride a solo bike again. So, I'm offf and down the road on a Dyna now. I still like sidecars, though and another one is in the future before the Grim Reaper comes and gets me.
GNM
That is what I am being told that a HD rig with HD sidecar is very stable and no need for raked trees. With raked trees is where the problem is.
Like your reverse HD at one time had one similar to the one you made using a HD starter motor.
More then likely do to both my knees I will have to get a reverse sooner or later. All so getting out of my garage is going to be tricky because of it starting to go up hill not far after getting out of the garage.
Thanks
Jeff
The same people told me if you run anything other then a HD sidecar the raked trees work fine as all other sidecars have suspension not like a HD sidecar.
46u - 8/28/2012 5:29 PM
The same people told me if you run anything other then a HD sidecar the raked trees work fine as all other sidecars have suspension not like a HD sidecar.
That makes no sense to me.
gnm109 - 8/28/2012 9:59 PM
46u - 8/28/2012 5:29 PM
The same people told me if you run anything other then a HD sidecar the raked trees work fine as all other sidecars have suspension not like a HD sidecar.
That makes no sense to me.
I do not know from fact as I have never drive a rig with rake trees to this point I have never driven a rig but I have talked to a few that I have know for years that all agree about raked trees with ridged HD sidecar. Guess you would have to ride one with rake tress to know for sure. No matter what I do will start out with stock trees as if they are not needed do not see spending the money. This is all a learning experience to me as far as sidecars go.
Thanks
Jeff
A set of modified trees will make all the late model Harleys handle easier (early ones had adjustable trees available from the factory).
I hear the cheapest wyt to go is with the TriGlide trees but some say you'll still need a damper with them.
Lonnie
Have you ever driven a late model HD with a HD sidecar? Yes as stated above HD use to make adjustable trees but they did not put near the rake in them as well as had a fiction steering dampener which they stop doing in the 80s when they went to making the rubber mounted motors and transmission on all the touring bikes. Wonder what the sidecar set up was on the T from 80 to 84 first rubber mounted bikes Harley made. Have to wonder why after all those years of making them they quite. Keep in mind when they came out with the T model in 80 they change the trees where the fork tubes are behind the trees steam and frame neck instead of in front.
Thanks
Jeff
Not enough folks were wanting to pay big bucks for their sidecars so they quit and went where the money is; Selling tricycles to empty nester Baby Boomers who want the big bike look without having to learn how to handle the big heavy bike.
A Harley Bagger is a long ways away from the little Honda step through many had as a teenie bopper.
Lonnie
It was about 28 years between the last raked HD tree and the new trike which is far from their first trike which they first made in the early 30s. The new trikes are big money and cost more then what a Ultra and sidecar cost.
Have you ever drove a twin cam HD with HD sidecar with out a raked tree that was set up properly?
I know this is not a HD sidecar but here is a good friend of mine that drove to Alaska and back with out raked trees or a steering dampener but we did put a heck of a load on the neck bearing adjustment. It is a 1988 FLHS the for runner of the road king he bought new with over 200,000 miles when he drove it to Alaska for the second time. We had to put a motor in it at 180,000 miles which to me is not real bad pulling a rig like he has on a air cooled engine. I do all the work on the bike since new. He all so has two other rigs.
I am just making conversation and learning about sidecars.
Thanks
Jeff
46u - 8/28/2012 8:00 PM
It was about 28 years between the last raked HD tree and the new trike which is far from their first trike which they first made in the early 30s. The new trikes are big money and cost more then what a Ultra and sidecar cost.
Have you ever drove a twin cam HD with HD sidecar with out a raked tree that was set up properly?
Sure have. My former T.C. was fitted with a new 2007 TLE sidecar that I bought new in the crate in 2006. It was set up properly by myself and handled extremely well. I used stock trees and the factory damper.
The only modifications I made were to add a 50 pound weight over the wheel and add a steel cap in place of the U-bolts on the rear mount. I built the weight and steel cap myself.
The trikes are nice but they sell out the door at around $35K. They aren't going to bring anywhere near that at resale. They are out of my league. I can buy a new car for that kind of money.
