Sway Bar on a Spyder?

Has a swaybar been done on a Spyder? Not that I know of. Could it be done? Yes. And Yes it would take some fabrication to do it.
You may be ahead of the game in stiffening up the suspension on the bike to get rid of, as you put it, 'the squirms'.
Keep in mind that even though swaybars do make a dramatic difference there are still many good handling rigs out there that do not run them. Some of the High Performnce Sidecars are even running with no swaybar. That , for them, is the esception rather than the rule but it is still done.

Thanks. I'm still new to the world of sidecars (it was installed less than two weeks ago, and I have only a few hundreds miles logged so far) , so I was just curious about the feasability of installing a sway bar for future reference. I still need to spend more time playing with suspension settings, alignment settings, tire pressures, etc., and also work on mastering the basics of sidecar driving.

I've noticed, though, that the rig is prone to bump steer and a general fidgety behavior on less than smooth pavement. It's controllable, and maybe a certain amount of this is just the nature of the beast, but the previous threads regarding sway bars seem to indicate that they are one of the best "bang for the buck" methods of calming down a combination in terms of cost and effectiveness. And, I had already beefed up the bike's suspension before having the car mounted. The suspension isn't as stout as it could be, but it's certainly more so than stock.

-Kurt

I have a feeling that after you gain more experience and maybe play with the setup more you will feel better about things. By all means do not hesitate to contact Motorvation. They are one of the best as far as service goes and I am sure they will do what they can to offer sugestions.

I too have a Spyder on a blue and white '03 T100 Bonneville. I'm experiencing no bump steer or "squirm", even with my slightly overweight neighbor in the chair.

I run the maximum air pressure in the front and rear tires (in shop manual) and 30 psi in the sidecar tire. I also have a set of Progressive fork springs in the front tubes and 10 weight Kayuba (sic) oil.

In addition, I added the hydraulic steering stabilizer which keeps the front end in check and allows you to develop arms like Charles Atlas in a few weeks, all kidding aside, if you don't have it, call Mary and get one on. The trail on the T100 is in keeping with a sport bike and without the damper, it's real squirmy at around 30 mph.

I have the stock rear shocks on the T100 and I keep them in the middle setting for pre-load. The Progressive shock on the Spyder trailing arm suspension is set on the lightest setting.

Sway bar, you don't need no sway bar. Just get your settings dialed in, air pressures right (check daily, the bike tires leak a little) and learn it's idiosyncrasies. Once you get accustomed to it, it's an easy ride. I jump back and forth between my Rocket3 and the outfit with no trouble now. This weekend, I was doing donuts in the dirt road out front of the farm with the outfit. It's very stable.

I take it you mounted the sidecar yourself as I did, but with the help of Hal Kendall's manual and LOC Performance Bikes. Alignment is critical as is lean out.

It looks just like my signature picture. If you'd like more pictures of it, my e-mail 'addy is in my profile.

Kurt, I might add that you join the elite ranks of 4 (Four) T100's with Spyders in the country. Mine, in MIchigan, Tom K's in North Carolina, an unknown owner in Johnstown, Penna., and yours.

Kurt:

I forgot to add that you need to have the sidecar wheel balanced on a spin balancer. I don't know which wheel option you have but I presume it's the wire one. Mine was way out of balance and adversely effected the handling at speeds above 50 mph. My T100 pulls the chair empty to 80 mph, where I chicken out!!

Bump steering is usually only a problem if a steering damper has been installed that is not mounted perpendicular (90 degrees) to the fork angle.

Lonnie

Anyone know how I would install a trailer hitch on a Spyder in the middle of the outfit? maybe combine it with a sway bar?

Doc,
A little or a lot of head scratching...a tubing bender and a welder is a start. I sent you an email 🙂
Claude

Thanks for all of the input. In order to answer some of the questions, and flesh things out:

1.) I didn't install the sidecar. I rode down to Iowa and had Motorvation do it.
2.) It has a steering damper that was installed by Motorvation, but I think it may be a little too stiff, which may contribute to the wiggles.
3.) On the way home from Iowa, I noticed that the rig pulled to the right somewhat, so I increased the leanout. That cured the pull, but made the car feel light during turns into the car.
4.) When I got home I checked the various settings and adjusted a few things. The car was level longitudinally, but not laterally. I removed some of that tilt. Toe in was about 3/8", but now it's 3/4". Lean out is now about 1/4" unladen, and about 1/2"-5/8" with me in the saddle.
5.) I have Progressive Suspension Series 12 dampers with 120/170 rate springs in back, and Progressive Suspension fork springs with preload spacers recommended for a solo bike. I don't know what spring rate the stock shocks have, but I presume that what I've got on there now is stiffer than stock. I might cut a longer spacer and increase the front preload slightly. I did notice that the shock on the car is also a Progressive product, and the spring is a 140/190. Beefier than I'd have guessed.

The rig isn't unrideable, by any means. And I do need to get more seat time so I'm not confusing inexperience with a genuine handling issue.
I've tried the Triumph recommended tire pressures, but they're for solo riding, so I've also tried slightly higher and lower pressures too. Also, I'm about 6'4" and 270 lbs., so that's likely a factor to account for. I'm still in the tinker phase.

I have another steering damper on the shelf. It's a standard adjustable race style unit. I'm just waiting for a fork tube clamp to arrive from Pro-Flow. Then I'll fab a bracket for mounting the other end to the frame and see if I can find a setting that's just strong enough to damp the typical low speed wobble without interfering with the steering or auto centering of the front wheel.

-Kurt

Originally written by Trumpeteer on 9/23/2006 2:59 AM

Thanks for all of the input. In order to answer some of the questions, and flesh things out:1.) I didn't install the sidecar. I rode down to Iowa and had Motorvation do it.2.) It has a steering damper that was installed by Motorvation, but I think it may be a little too stiff, which may contribute to the wiggles.3.) On the way home from Iowa, I noticed that the rig pulled to the right somewhat, so I increased the leanout. That cured the pull, but made the car feel light during turns into the car.4.) When I got home I checked the various settings and adjusted a few things. The car was level longitudinally, but not laterally. I removed some of that tilt. Toe in was about 3/8", but now it's 3/4". Lean out is now about 1/4" unladen, and about 1/2"-5/8" with me in the saddle.5.) I have Progressive Suspension Series 12 dampers with 120/170 rate springs in back, and Progressive Suspension fork springs with preload spacers recommended for a solo bike. I don't know what spring rate the stock shocks have, but I presume that what I've got on there now is stiffer than stock. I might cut a longer spacer and increase the front preload slightly. I did notice that the shock on the car is also a Progressive product, and the spring is a 140/190. Beefier than I'd have guessed.The rig isn't unrideable, by any means. And I do need to get more seat time so I'm not confusing inexperience with a genuine handling issue.I've tried the Triumph recommended tire pressures, but they're for solo riding, so I've also tried slightly higher and lower pressures too. Also, I'm about 6'4" and 270 lbs., so that's likely a factor to account for. I'm still in the tinker phase. I have another steering damper on the shelf. It's a standard adjustable race style unit. I'm just waiting for a fork tube clamp to arrive from Pro-Flow. Then I'll fab a bracket for mounting the other end to the frame and see if I can find a setting that's just strong enough to damp the typical low speed wobble without interfering with the steering or auto centering of the front wheel. -Kurt

1. I'm surprised that Mary and crew didn't get close to right the first time. I'm also wondering how exactly they mounted the sidecar to the T100 as Tom had the first one done and his mount points and attachment hardware are completely different than my number 2 chair is/was.

2. I have the same steering damper and it's mounted parallel to the angle of the front forks on the lower leg and front triangular mount. I did modify the mount where it clamps to the lower leg by machining a spacer to take up the difference in diameters, but you may not have the mount Mary supplied with my sidecar. The dampening action of the unit should preclude any wobble. Have you ever checked the pre-load on the bearings in the headstock of the bike. You've never stated the bikes mileage, but pre-load is something that needs to be checked as well as the swing arm bearings. You need to visit a dealer for either or consult the shop manual. If the headstock bearings are loose, your handling will be less than desirable. In retrospect, the damper is stiff, but once underway, I never notice it unless the road is real twisty and then the "Charles Atlas" syndrome kicks in.

3&4. I would have not altered the mount settings that Mary and crew set in Sibley. One thing I learned is that the learning curve takes sometime and the tendency to change initial settings however great, should be subdued until one becomes familiar with the quirks of the outfit, and, they are all different. I'm sure the Motorvation crew rode the outfit at Sibley and that it handled to their expectations. It's never going to handle like a solo bike. accept that or take it off and put the chair in the corner. I also presume you got Mary's setup literature with the chair. Try to follow her guidelines as closely as possible. They do know what they're doing.

5. I too, have the Progressive replacement springs in the front forks. My rear shocks are stock

SCT,
Item 2 correction. Your damper should be mounted perpendicular to the angle of the front forks, right?

A suggestion to others seeking setup information here:
Set lean-out with a magnetic angle guage (cheap tool) placed on a front rotor (or wheel rim if no rotor) and set lean-out at 1 to 2 degrees with bike and car loaded with normal expected weight.
The 1/4", 1/2" lean-out figures gleaned from using a square or level placed against the tire don't mean much when one considers the fact that the cycle (or scooter) wheel may be anywhere from an 8" wheel to a 21" or larger. With a degreed guage, wheel and tire sizes aren't a part of the equation.
The same applies to quoted toe-in numbers. Where were they measured from? The ends of an 8' 2x4? Both ends of the bike? The bike axles?
I get my toe-in figures directly from the bikes wheelbase. Measuring from below the bike axles to a 1"x1" square steel tube spaced and placed firmly against the sidecar wheel.
It's not rocket science but the same parameters are needed to get figures that can be passed on and used by others in helping with their setup problems.
Most all are looking for neutral steering, minimal tire wear and the best fuel mileage.

Happy Trails,

Lonnie

Lonnie:What is 5616?

Flip,
5616? In what context?

1. I'm surprised that Mary and crew didn't get close to right the first time. I'm also wondering how exactly they mounted the sidecar to the T100 as Tom had the first one done and his mount points and attachment hardware are completely different than my number 2 chair is/was.

> Probably a time contraint thing. It was getting late in the day when I left Motorvation. The steering damper was a last minute add on at my request. It was driving reasonably well as delivered, just the slight pull to the right. The rest of the adjustments (i.e. increase toe in to decrease required lean out) are a matter of taste. The mount points on my bike are the standard spots for the Bonneville according to Motorvation's pictorial cookbook. Tom's mount points are slightly different and required a sub frame add on.

2. The dampening action of the unit should preclude any wobble. Have you ever checked the pre-load on the bearings in the headstock of the bike. You've never stated the bikes mileage, but pre-load is something that needs to be checked as well as the swing arm bearings.

> Wobble is not the problem. The rig tracks well on smooth pavement and doesn't wobble under any circumstances. On bumpy or uneven pavement it likes to figet around a bit, though. The bike is new. I bought it specifically for this project. It only has about 1500 miles on it, so I think all of the bearings should be in pretty good shape.

5. I run the maximum recommended pressure in the front and rear tires, by recommended, I mean for 2 up riding in the owners/shop manual

> The recommended pressures are the same for all situations, solo rider or fully laden. 33 front, 38 rear.

I am running one tooth up on the counter shaft from stock

> I went down a tooth, but haven't had a chance to test it out yet. I just swapped the sprockets last night. I've never had any complaints about the 17 tooth on my other Bonneville. I tried an 18, but didn't like it. It made the bike seem too slothfull.

I don't believe you will ever be able to attain a self centering front wheel and still have enough dampening to calm the non Earles Fork reduced trail condition of the stock Triumph forks. The fork and suspension angle are designed for handling not a sidecar.

> I don't quite understand this. The Bonneville has fairly lazy steering geometry as delivered. The steering head angle is 29 degrees and the trail is something like 4.6 inches. That's good for stability and a self centering caster effect, but makes for less than ideal solo handling, and increased steering effort with the car attached. I moved the fork tubes up in the triple clamps 15mm within days of taking delivery of the bike. That helped. Lower bars and different tires (I've tried Pirelli Sport Demons and Metzeler Tourance on the other Bonnie and have been impressed with both)would help even more , but the Bonneville is no sport bike.

If you're prime concern is the sidecar and handling woes, get an Earles conversion. It will ruin the look of the bike in so much as the front end, but your handling will be much, much better.

> To be honest, I don't mind the look of an Earles fork, especially on the sidecar combo. Even though this car will be on the bike the majority of the time ( I have the cafe'd Bonnie and two other bikes for solo riding), I reserve the right to remove the car periodically for solo riding during rallys, etc. The Earles conversion would probably compromise the solo handling more than I'd like.

I'm familiar with the "other" steering damper. You won't be happy with the results. It don't have the dampening to control the stock front forks.

> This isn't the Norman Hyde damper that the Bonneville specific sites sell. It's adjustable from "fairly light", to "so stiff I can't compress it with my hands". I've already ordered the clamp, so I feel compelled to at least give it a try. My theory is that, if the damping rate of the current unit is indeed too high, it interferes with the bikes natural castering ability. A bump deflects the front wheel, and