Iv'e been changing my setup to correct a couple of problems and I have a question about the camber on the car wheel. It's one of the things I'm correcting but am unsure about what it should be. Last year I ran it with the top of the wheel tilted toward the car a few degrees, through a judgement error. It turned left really well but right was a bear. So my question is what should I strive for? Instinct tells me it should be perfectly verticle with the car / bike set up with proper toe and lean out and me on the bike or possibly top tilted away a few degrees. Any info will be appreciated. I found the shock had come apart internally and beat its valving to death,the only thing holding it together was the bump stop. No wonder it seemed like I had an oar out there- it's a wonder I didn't ball it up. I just modified my homemade swing arm to accept a 13.5" mtorcycle shock
John,
if you are able to tilt the sidecar's wheel position, then first double check what I say here with the german riding manual in the download section.
The sidecar tire's track line is suposed to be adjusted towards the bike and when you tilt the wheel just barely outside you lower the rubbing effect on the tires thread, still riding straight.
Beside:How you describe it, it sounds like your sidecar wheel is running way too far towards the bike.
Measure using a "straight" square tube leaning against the sidecar wheel. (best lifted a few inches from the ground for better contact to the tire (or better to the rim))
At the Verlorex 562 (like mine, but I have only a small Jawa) the sidecar frame shall be level (measured with a maisonette's level / that leaves the sidecar wheel perpendicular to ground with a very little tilt outside)and the distance between the bikes centre line to this square bar should be 30-40mm narrower at the front wheel then at the back wheel.
I never am able to adjust it perfect, but Fernando the Jawa-importer makes it each time right to manual spects.
When he does the setup my rig runs perfectly straight and flawless.
You may try to load some ballast on bike and sidecar while you take the measurements for to get better adjustment results.
Take care of the shock and the tiny 15mm s/c shaft! When they go, you follow..... possibly into hospital.
Best wishes
Sven Peter
Last year after fabricating a new swingarm for a 20 mm axel and 18" wheel I cut the swingarm tower off and rewelded it because I never could get enough toe in, it was Lonnie, I think who clued me in to the fact that most of those swingarm towers were not correct from the factory. So now after doing some work I have the correct toe,level and all that, I have the swing arm tower tacked in place after getting it wrong last year, { to much tilt out at the top}all I have to do is set the sidecar wheel camber and weld it up.I have looked for that specific information and cant find it mentioned anywhere. I will look at that German riding manual next, maybe it's in there. You are right about the ballast, I've done a bunch of messing around with different weights and it makes quite a difference! Thanks Sven
Hey John, what kind of Guzzi do you ride? I have a 2003 cali hooked up to a CSC friendship II Rig. Great tug the Guzzi, tons of torque, especially with the 7/33 gearing. can you post a picture of your rig? Good luck , Rick.
John,
that sounds a little like my former MZ-Superelastic. When something didn't fit, just use a long pry bar or the "high precision aligning tool"
=> my 10Kg = 22 lbs slash hammer.
In fact the german manual most probably will not mention numbers, but explains well all issues of alignment and what effects on what.
So in any case it will be good to review that part of the manual closer.
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I just picked it up start from page 29.
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By the way I found the EAST-german workshop manual for MZ 125/150 and 250ccm from 1973 to 1985 (should be valid until the final end 2 years ago for all their 2 strokers), but it does not include anything about the sidecar.
If somebody is interested it includes the drawings for all special motor repair tools.
Just knock the door.
Best regards
Sven
Ok heres some pics, if they work, it's a 99 Bassa and it's roughed together after a few mods so it's close.Ive ran it two years now and grqadually getting it better.I also have the 7/33 gears in it ,Rick
John,
Why the odd angle on the intermediate and rear lower struts?
Placing them in a direct push/pull position will eliminate the tendency to rotate under force since these are paint to paint connections.
Lonnie
Northwest Sidecars
I too find the connection pretty weird, specially the oven clamp tend to turn and move all alignments.
You have worked already quite a bit on the frame, so why not make a straight forward rigid triangle connection to the bike?
Myself I neither ever liked the 2 wiggle eye bolts on the velorex frame sticking upwards. Inside I reinforced them with wider turned bushings and think I should make their base and shaft even bigger and the eye's distance to the frame way higher, for to get a real triangle. And after alignment weld it to the frame.
Acourding to the engineering saying: "What cannot be adjusted, cannot be disadjusted neither"
Just my 2 cent.
Sven
Nice setup, John, I have never seen 5 mounts used on a Guzzi, but better safe than sorry. how much ballast does that big steel plate provide? have you determined the total weight of your sidecar? My CSC friendship two weighs 230 lbs, and I have 50 lbs of lead in a bag behind the seat for a total of 280 lbs. hack is still a little light, as I weigh just under 300 lbs, so I can lift the chair pretty easily. I think I need another 25-35 lbs of ballast, or a strict diet for me! :o:-( Hehehe Rick
Lonnie, I guess the only reasons for the odd angles is ignorance of what I'm trying to do and getting the lead where I want it, about 6.5". plus I'm trying not to modify the original parts of the bike, just bolting on a couple of subframes at convienent places. I'm also trying not to change the original frame of the car, as I have all the parts to put it back into stock form. I used five mounts to keep it from moving around, I travel some rough roads or no roads and like Rick I am a "normal" sized person so there is alot of force on it at times. I agree it could be done better, with a little more thougt out geometry but for a first attempt it's not bad, it does stay put when I set it up. The ballast plate is 88 lbs, usually its bolted under the frame, but now it's just sitting on the frame . Please fell free to offer any suggestions. I believe I will try to set the car wheel camber at verticle or 1/2 a degree top out, thats positive camber. not that thats desireable, I don't know,but if I'm in error on the setup once it's welded up ,I think it would be more desireable than negative camber once I simulate the weights on it, which I don't really know yet, except my own, 268 lbs.
Velorex 562S= 154#
Ballast plate 88#
S/C weight is 242#+-.
Hey John, no worries re; the Wt. Your Goose will pull it in style, with the 7/33 gears. I weigh a couple more pounds more than you( havent weighed in since holidays.... 🙁 ), my wife weighs 215 herself. ok if she read this forum I would be dead! The Guzzi has plenty of power/torque, and very robust brakes to stop all that mass! Rick
Bigbikerrick - 1/15/2010 7:00 AM
Nice setup, John, I have never seen 5 mounts used on a Guzzi, but better safe than sorry. how much ballast does that big steel plate provide? have you determined the total weight of your sidecar? My CSC friendship two weighs 230 lbs, and I have 50 lbs of lead in a bag behind the seat for a total of 280 lbs. hack is still a little light, as I weigh just under 300 lbs, so I can lift the chair pretty easily. I think I need another 25-35 lbs of ballast, or a strict diet for me! :o:-( Hehehe Rick
This is only an estimate and John can give the correct dmensions but that plate looks to be something 48" X 8" X1". If so, that's 384 cu. in. According to my Glover Reference Book, 2d. Ed., a cu. ft. of rolled steel weighs 495 pounds. Since 384 cu. in. is approximately 22% of that, I estimate that plate at near 95 pounds. That's quite a bit of weight for the tubing in that sidecar.
Assuming arguendo that you have a 4 foot moment arm from the centerline of the bike, you could use half as much weight if you were to put it double the distance from the fulcrum. JMO.
Senor GNM, you must be an engineer, man, thats some"heavy stuff" , if you catch my drift...You lost me back at the angle of the dangle is inversely proportional to the heat in the meat........ :O heHeHe, Just Joking!actually, even to a simpleton like myself, it makes perfect sense.. "Assuming arguendo that you have a 4 foot moment arm from the centerline of the bike, you could use half as much weight if you were to put it double the distance from the fulcrum. JMO." basical, that means that if you increase the distance between the hack and the bike ( track width) you can get more stability while using less ballast....Right? Peace , Rick.
Bigbikerrick - 1/15/2010 4:14 PM
Senor GNM, you must be an engineer, man, thats some"heavy stuff" , if you catch my drift...You lost me back at the angle of the dangle is inversely proportional to the heat in the meat........ :O heHeHe, Just Joking!actually, even to a simpleton like myself, it makes perfect sense.. "Assuming arguendo that you have a 4 foot moment arm from the centerline of the bike, you could use half as much weight if you were to put it double the distance from the fulcrum. JMO." basical, that means that if you increase the distance between the hack and the bike ( track width) you can get more stability while using less ballast....Right? Peace , Rick.
Well, ahhh, sort of. I wasn't suggesting any modification to the motorcycle or sidecar. What I meant was: Assuming a 4 foot distance from the centerline of the motorcycle to the centerline of the sidecar wheel. If you place 50 # at the extreme farthest point, it's the same as a 100 # weight (twice as heavy) only half way out. As a practical matter, it's probably not possible to place the weight directly over the sidecar wheel but it can be placed rather close. On my Harley, it's most of the way out, maybe 10" from the centerline of the wheel and I have a 46 # weight. If I had the weight directly under the center of the tub, I'd need twice as much weight to perform the same task.
I learned this in my high school physics class when I wasn't talking out of turn, chewing gum or talking to the girls. LOL.
As to the angle of the sidecar wheel, Harley-Davidson has fixed that so it won't move. Since there is no spinging on the wheel to frame joint, they set the wheel directly vertical. It seems to work since the present rig that I have handles very nicely indeed. I don't think I would care for any camber on that particular measurement.
The best thing one can do is to come up with two long straight edges with which you can very carefully set the toe-in. I bought a 20' length of 1-1/4 square steel tubing and divided it in half. I then welded feet on each end so the two bars will stand up and are elevated about 4". I use one of these across the inside of the motorcycle wheels and the other one outside of the sidecar wheel to give me a basis for measurement of toe-in. I start at 3/4" as suggested by my Harley manual.
Bke lean is best done with a magnetic protractor. I usually have that close to vertical as well. It would be nice to have an electric lean but it's not in the cards with a Harley-Davidson.
No, I'm not an engineer but I did sleep at home last night. 🙂
