Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Washington State require that you take a sidecar class before you can operate one on the road?
No. You do need a separate endorsement to operate a sidecar, but there is no requirement to take the class.
Originally written by stevewoo on 3/29/2007 7:59 PM
No. You do need a separate endorsement to operate a sidecar, but there is no requirement to take the class.
Thanks Steve, my mistake.
Originally written by JohnC on 3/21/2007 4:34 PM
Lonnie,
Did you ever consider another manufacturer before you went with the Harley car? I have a 2003 Road King and am torn between the Harley hack and the one from Liberty. According to Liberty, the Harley sub-frame uses a three-point mounting system making it comparatively flexible. The Harley sidecar has no suspension and depends on its flexibility to provide ride quality. The Libery, on the other hand, uses a four-point mounting system that triangulates the chassis, making it rigid and allowing the suspension of the Liberty sidecar to do its job. The only caveat to the Liberty car is that a weld-nut has to be welded to the frame somewhere to accomodate the subframe. I don't know where exactly this weld-nut goes, been trying to find out more.
Now, I've never seen either one so I am only going on what I've learned over the internet and from others. Your thoughts?
- John
Liberty makes a good sidecar as does Harley. The weld nut to which you refer goes on the right side of the upper frame section rght under the front of the saddle (I call them saddles, most people call them seats.)
The weld nut is only required if you wish to install a Liberty on a Harley FL model. The Softail does not require any welding. Sadly, it's also necessary to cut a small section out of the right side of the saddle to clear the welded nut. The nut is for the fourth mount which Liberty uses. Liberty uses modified Harley mounts for the other three mounts, by the way.....I got a copy of the installation instructions for a Liiberty on an FL from a friend and it shows where the nut has to be welded.
I checked prices on Liberty versus a brand new-crated Harley TLE sidecar and discovered that, after paint matching and a few accessories, the prices were similar so I went with the Harley since no welding or cutting was required. I also got a perfect paint match from the factory, incuding stripes.
The Liberty is a fiberglass version of the early Harley "Dutch Shoe" sidecar model that was used by Harley in the 40's, up to the 1960's when they changed to the fiberglass torpedo style that they use now.
The Harley sidecar comes with all of the parts necessary to modify the rear brake and master cylinder to clear the front attachment bows. I dont know whether the Liberty needs this or not. Also, there is a hinge kit for the right saddlebag lid to make it removable so that it doesn't hit the sidecar body when opened. There is also a rollover conversion kit to kill the engine in a rollover but this is not required on the earlier Harleys prior to 2003.
After 1998, Harley changed to a disc brake on the sidecar which is very effective. Properly bled, there should be no pulling on hard braking. At least, I haven't noticed any.
I don't think you could go wrong with either the Liberty or the Harley if you can stand the idea of the welding and cutting.
I don't know anything about which other brands of sidecars might fit a Harley.
gnm109 wrote:
snip.....I don't know anything about which other brands of sidecars might fit a Harley.
................................................................
Manymany sidecars can be fitted to a Harley. The main thing as with any sidecar is that it be large enough to make th erig stable and fun to ride.
We will be mounting a Watsonian Palma on one soon. Have done Motorvation Frormla II sidecars as well as a few others. In fact a Ural sidecar on a a Harley has a great look to it if done up right. LAK makes a noce Harley reproduction similar to Liberty but onlya couple are in this country that I have heard of.
Keep in mind that many of these will take some custom mounts with a subframe being an inportant thing. I am quite sure that a Liberty could be attached with no welding to the bike frame if a proper subframe was built. Motorvation makes a decent subframe for Harleys but I am not sure what models they are tailored to. We do ours in house and like to have the bike and sidecar on hand.
Hi Claude. Well, it's good to know that other sidecars can be fitted to a Harley. Actually, I like the idea of a subframe since it would permit the installation of the sidecar a bit lower and, best of all, without any welding.
While I don't profess to have a complete knowledge of other sidecars, I do a lot know about welding. Although I have been a professional in my own business, my hobby has long been metal-working and welding. I've been doing TIG, MIG, Oxy-acetylene and stick welding for more than 40 years now and I'm quite sure that myself or any other competent welder could weld that nut on the frame of a Harley to mount a Liberty. I myself would certainly not do that, however.
My rule on working on motorcycles is that I leave them essentially stock with no holes, cuts or welds on the frame or anyplace else. I don't drill holes to mount chrome bits, I don't cut things off to make the bike look "better" and I don't weld anything on that could potentially weaken a frame member. Oh, yeah, I also don't burn paint off with a welding torch......and I'm sure not going to cut a chunk out of my saddle.......Ha.
I know, I know, now I'll now hear from other welders, professional and otherwise who will say that welding on a frame doesn't weaken it. Right. Whatever they say. I do know that welding on a frame will void the warranty on a machine that is still under warranty at least with regard to potential frame damage. I've spoken to Harley dealers about this and they confirm it.
That was the appeal of the Harley sidecar for me. I could mount it myself, make the factory-specified modifications using factory parts and have the removed parts left over in the event that I should ever wish to return the machine to stock for a later sale or simply to go back to solo usage again. Since I now have close to $30K in the machine and sidecar, that is a big issue with me.
If I still had my 1994 Goldwing 1500, which by the way, I consider to be one of the finest motorcycles ever to run on the road - it would make a very fine "tug" for a sidecar due to the bottomless torque and tremendous stock horsepower. In that case, I would certainly opt for a subframe and some other brand of sidecar. It's too bad that Liberty only concentrates on Harley-oriented sidecars because they do make a nice product.
Thanks for your comments. Regards to all and Happy trails!
gnm109,
Not to be nit picky but,
FYI: The 1998 95th Anniversary HD's had a disc sidecar brake.
Lonnie
Northwest Sidecars
I have welded some mounts onto bike frames but only fo rmy own stuff or if comeone wanted a real custom type system done up. Right now we are doing a K Bike where the whole rear of the frame is custom built. With that being said it is still not something to take lightly. I do nto recomend welding on mounts but many have doen so.
I also want to make it very clear that in no way is what I have written meant to reflect that Liberty is dong something that is nto acceptable or time proven with the weld nut you spoke of. Pete Larson does some of the best work on the planet and does it right. Liberty's reputation is excellent and a rig done up by them is something to be proud of.
Just for the record.
Originally written by Hack'n on 3/30/2007 10:29 AM
gnm109,
Not to be nit picky but,
FYI: The 1998 95th Anniversary HD's had a disc sidecar brake.Lonnie
Northwest Sidecars
Right, 1998. Now what?
Originally written by claude #3563 on 3/30/2007 3:32 PM
I have welded some mounts onto bike frames but only fo rmy own stuff or if comeone wanted a real custom type system done up. Right now we are doing a K Bike where the whole rear of the frame is custom built. With that being said it is still not something to take lightly. I do nto recomend welding on mounts but many have doen so.
I also want to make it very clear that in no way is what I have written meant to reflect that Liberty is dong something that is nto acceptable or time proven with the weld nut you spoke of. Pete Larson does some of the best work on the planet and does it right. Liberty's reputation is excellent and a rig done up by them is something to be proud of.
Just for the record.
OK.
For a Harley, the Harley sidecars are the best. They are comfortable and have fewer sidecar related idiosyncracies. I have both types of rigs with and without brakes. The one with brakes is by far and away a safer rig for hard stops especially with a passenger. Having driven more years than Icare to admit, the one without brake is just as safe, at least for me.
What is of importance it the amount of braking force applied to the car brake, and it should be on the light side, so at to exibit the least amount of pulling to either side, and remain as neutral as possible while braking. In effect, you will only be helping in slowing the weight down. Sort of a mechanical anti lock brake.
Both my rigs have hade no changes in steering angles, but dampers are a must. Though pricey, the Harley/harley rig is stable and easy to handle.
When teaching driving sidecars (many moons ago) I recommended ballast at first, but to get rid of it once proficient.
Good luck with your project.
Originally written by tacchi88 on 4/10/2007 2:56 AM
For a Harley, the Harley sidecars are the best. They are comfortable and have fewer sidecar related idiosyncracies. I have both types of rigs with and without brakes. The one with brakes is by far and away a safer rig for hard stops especially with a passenger. Having driven more years than Icare to admit, the one without brake is just as safe, at least for me.
What is of importance it the amount of braking force applied to the car brake, and it should be on the light side, so at to exibit the least amount of pulling to either side, and remain as neutral as possible while braking. In effect, you will only be helping in slowing the weight down. Sort of a mechanical anti lock brake.
Both my rigs have hade no changes in steering angles, but dampers are a must. Though pricey, the Harley/harley rig is stable and easy to handle.
When teaching driving sidecars (many moons ago) I recommended ballast at first, but to get rid of it once proficient.
Good luck with your project.
I certainly agree that the HD sidecar is best for a Harley. Everthing fits, anyway.
As to balancing the brake, they have done this very nicely with the disc brake setup which is smaller than the other brakes on the machine (dual fronts and large rear in my case.)
I've always found that the steering damper works well for the Harley. i do wish that someone would come up with an electric lean device for them, however.
Regards.
Originally written by tacchi88 on 4/10/2007 12:04 AM
For a Harley, the Harley sidecars are the best. They are comfortable and have fewer sidecar related idiosyncracies. .
not really...there are a lot of other better SC's out there, with great mounting systems,[4 point, not 3] full suspension, [no need for a sprung SC], easier in and out for the passengers, and look just as good, if not better.
Based just on my own limited experience, I have to disagree that a HD bike should 'automatically' have an HD car. My wife is 6 feet tall and found the Harley car to be somewhat cramped and uncomfortable. The car we looked at (a 2003 model) has a foot rest 'board' that goes across the front half of the cavity forward of the seat; I believe this board also improves structural integrity of the car. Unfortunately, since the foot rest/board is so close to the seat, my wife's legs were bent so that her knees hit against the front lip of the car's opening.
Last week I was at a small local rally and saw a metric bike that had a California side car installed. The suspension system looked to be a improvement over the simple HD version and the car body did not have the foot board going across the inside front. It also seemed to be a bit wider than the HD car; It just looked to be a lot roomier than the HD car.
Personally, I still love the look of the Liberty model but I can't get past the fact that I have to weld a weldnut to my frame and modify the saddle, cutting out a chunk to accommodate the weldnut. If it wasn't for this single factor, my decision as to which manufacturer to buy would have been made already. (Listen up, Liberty!)
I'm still going to hold off on making a purchasing decision until after a major Sidecar rally to be held near me in September. I'm hoping to see some good examples from a number of manufacturers and really want to hear user experiences with their purchase.
Originally written by JohnC on 4/10/2007 8:38 AM
Based just on my own limited experience, I have to disagree that a HD bike should 'automatically' have an HD car. My wife is 6 feet tall and found the Harley car to be somewhat cramped and uncomfortable. The car we looked at (a 2003 model) has a foot rest 'board' that goes across the front half of the cavity forward of the seat; I believe this board also improves structural integrity of the car. Unfortunately, since the foot rest/board is so close to the seat, my wife's legs were bent so that her knees hit against the front lip of the car's opening.
Last week I was at a small local rally and saw a metric bike that had a California side car installed. The suspension system looked to be a improvement over the simple HD version and the car body did not have the foot board going across the inside front. It also seemed to be a bit wider than the HD car; It just looked to be a lot roomier than the HD car.
Personally, I still love the look of the Liberty model but I can't get past the fact that I have to weld a weldnut to my frame and modify the saddle, cutting out a chunk to accommodate the weldnut. If it wasn't for this single factor, my decision as to which manufacturer to buy would have been made already. (Listen up, Liberty!)
I'm still going to hold off on making a purchasing decision until after a major Sidecar rally to be held near me in September. I'm hoping to see some good examples from a number of manufacturers and really want to hear user experiences with their purchase.
No one is telliing you or Bob in Wisconsin or anyone what to buy. If your S.O. is 6 feet tall, certainly you should find a sidecar that will fit her frame. It's still a free country. Probably there are some other sidecars that are larger and have more legroom (Hannigan? Liberty HD copy?)
The only problem for you is going to be getting the mounts right. You can do a lot of messing around with things like subframes and so-called "universal" mounts that don't fit without cutting this and bending that. That can be something I wouldn't care to get involved in.
I bought a Harley sidecar because I wanted one. It also fits perfectly and has needed electronic safety equipment for rollover protection, something provided by few other manufacturers. Also, no welding on the frame was required.
So, don't buy a Harley sidecar. Simple. It's not like anyone is twisting your arm.
It sounds like I can hear another Harley bash coming.
