gnm109 - 2/13/2010 7:25 AM
I didn't say that one can't ride a Harley on gravel. I said that I don't do so.
Sidecars always had their own class in the desert and in enduros. They can't compete with solos in the dirt nor do they attempt to do so. Since they are (were) in a different class, power to weight ratio is not an issue.
There are (were) whole clubs that raced sidecars. I formerly took photos of desert racers and there were whole groups that raced them.
Leaners are never used in racing anymore. I understand that there were some used on board tracks but that hasn't been around for a long time.
Watch the Isle of Man TT sometime. They have the absolute best sidecar racers in the world at the TT. There are no leaners (at least I've yet to see one) . They rely on the stability offered by the sidecar frame, plus the agility of the "monkey" (passenger) and rider to get around the corners. A leaner in such a situation at 140 mph would be at an extreme disadvantage.
I'm just offering my reasons for having a standard sidecar. If I want the nimblenes of a solo bike, I will unbolt the sidecar and go for a ride. There is no free lunch when it comes to a sidecar. To say that a leaner has the same feel as a solo i stretching a point.
It's nothing about which we should disagree. If you like leaners, that's fine. I doubt they will be very popular at any time. They have always been extremely rare and will probably continue to be so.
> I didn't say that one can't ride a Harley on gravel. I said that I don't do so.
I understand. All I am saying is if there is a possibility of damaging the belt and losing the drive, it's not really designed for gravel.
> If I want the nimblenes of a solo bike, I will unbolt the sidecar and go for a ride.
That brings another pro on leaners. (sorry)
It's easier to attach/detach sidecar. Just two bolts. 10 minutes job. And you don't have to worry about alignment that much.
> To say that a leaner has the same feel as a solo i stretching a point.
I have never said that. I have solo motorcycles so there's no need for leaner rig to behave exactly like a solo motorcycle. (It's fairly close, I have to say though.)
I ride a rig for my son. When he becomes old enough to ride on a motorcycle, I may or may not ditch the rig.
> I doubt they will be very popular at any time. They have always been extremely rare and will probably continue to be so.
I completely agree. And I like it that way.
Not that it's a big deal but leaners were banded from racing because they were just to fast. Much like bicycle racing banded recumpents because they were and are way faster then the other types of bikes. Some track days won't let leaners on. My Flexit rig would run up to it's limit of 130mph just fine. My Armec road fine up to 120mph it's limit ( checked it with GPS ) we have 18" of snow right now so if I need a sidecar ride I think pulling out the 2 WD Ural sportsman might be the better rig. I like both...........;O)
dave - 2/13/2010 9:13 AM
Not that it's a big deal but leaners were banded from racing because they were just to fast. Much like bicycle racing banded recumpents because they were and are way faster then the other types of bikes. Some track days won't let leaners on. My Flexit rig would run up to it's limit of 130mph just fine. My Armec road fine up to 120mph it's limit ( checked it with GPS ) we have 18" of snow right now so if I need a sidecar ride I think pulling out the 2 WD Ural sportsman might be the better rig. I like both...........;O)
My goodness. I forgot about snow. I doubt many leaner riders (many being a relative term) will take their rig out for a spin in the snow on icy roads, now will they? I could do that if I wanted to bundle up. LOL.
As to snow in general. I was born in Chicago and I left when I found out where I was.
gnm109 - 2/13/2010 8:30 AM
dave - 2/13/2010 9:13 AM
Not that it's a big deal but leaners were banded from racing because they were just to fast. Much like bicycle racing banded recumpents because they were and are way faster then the other types of bikes. Some track days won't let leaners on. My Flexit rig would run up to it's limit of 130mph just fine. My Armec road fine up to 120mph it's limit ( checked it with GPS ) we have 18" of snow right now so if I need a sidecar ride I think pulling out the 2 WD Ural sportsman might be the better rig. I like both...........;O)
My goodness. I forgot about snow. I doubt many leaner riders (many being a relative term) will take their rig out for a spin in the snow on icy roads, now will they? I could do that if I wanted to bundle up. LOL.
As to snow in general. I was born in Chicago and I left when I found out where I was.
About this rigid sidecar rigs on snow myth...
Are they really that good on snow/ice?
I mean even meager 2WD automobiles struggle in that condition. We are talking about 1WD asymetric vehicle here unless you own Ural.
I watched RedMenace's KLR650 rig video on snow. Can he really go places where 2WD or even 4WD autos can't go?
As for solo motorcyles on snow/ice, people do it all the time. It's just a matter of grip. Mail delivery people in northern part of Japan (say Sapporo) ride 50cc Honda "supercub" all winter. They are equipped with studded tires sometimes snow chains.
As for Isle of Man, yes they are spectacular! I used to watch it on SpeedVision (not any more thanks to NASCAR and auto reality shows).
Last year, I watched ARHMA sidecar race in Willow Springs in person. They were so cool!
Hopefully I will visit Isle of Man someday...
Are rigid rigs any good in Snow or ice?
Here are a couple of shots of the BoneHead Enduro which takes place in the Cascade s out of Snoqualmie, WA in April of the year.
My entry, a 1983 XJ650 Yamaha/URAL rig with highway tires and a 140# monkey got about 50' farther in the deep snow at our last checkpoint than any of the URAL or Dnepr rigs with 2 wheel drive and full knobby tires ( I was also the oldest driver).
Our lighter and more powerful rig didn't just dig holes in the snow and high center like the 2WD's did.
Lonnie
Skiri asks:
About this rigid sidecar rigs on snow myth...
Are they really that good on snow/ice?
---
my answer: yupp.... as long the snow is not too deep.
But the best improvement I made was a deflector sheet metal below the sidecar frame and spare wheel.
As soon I got into deep snow or branches in the forest. the sidecar simply lifted and the sidecar wheel and frame didn't force me any more into a U-turn
I'd love to try the same trick with a 2WD Ural!
Anyway the best of the sidecar in snow and ice is you have a FULL TIME STEERING + TRACTION BACK FEED. and still after loosing the grip you have the change to steer with your body weight and gas.
I call it Butt-steering.
And the very last anchor is just jump off, something you cannot do with a car.
(except a convertible)
(had to do it from my Solo Norton Commander in Death Valley 1988)
Sven
Lonnie,
On the Yami, did you change the gearing for lower rating? If not how did the rig behave? I like these engines they last and last and last.
Just last weekend I met one from 82 in perfect condition.
Sven
Hack'n - 2/13/2010 10:08 AM
Are rigid rigs any good in Snow or ice?
Here are a couple of shots of the BoneHead Enduro which takes place in the Cascade s out of Snoqualmie, WA in April of the year.
My entry, a 1983 XJ650 Yamaha/URAL rig with highway tires and a 140# monkey got about 50' farther in the deep snow at our last checkpoint than any of the URAL or Dnepr rigs with 2 wheel drive and full knobby tires ( I was also the oldest driver).
Our lighter and more powerful rig didn't just dig holes in the snow and high center like the 2WD's did.Lonnie
I see a solo motorcycle in Pic#2.
Is this enduro for both solo motorcycles and sidecar rigs?
How did that solo bike do?
And what do you think 4WD Jeep would do?
I have basically no experience riding in snow. I once took out 200cc 2stroke dirbike with nobby tires into snow. I did okay on paved road (a few inches of compacted snow) so I ventured into a fire trail (a foot deep fresh snow) and got stuck almost immediately.
I know there are crazy people who gather at the northern most tip of Japan (Cape Soya) on new year's day. It's -20 degrees C (-4 F), snow and ice. They use all sorts of motorcycles. 50 cc supercubs, 400cc multi-cylinder road bikes, 250cc dual-purpose. So I guess you can do it if you have skills, preparation, and determination (and madness).
Peter Pan - 2/13/2010 12:44 PM
Skiri asks:
About this rigid sidecar rigs on snow myth...
Are they really that good on snow/ice?
---
my answer: yupp.... as long the snow is not too deep.
But the best improvement I made was a deflector sheet metal below the sidecar frame and spare wheel.
As soon I got into deep snow or branches in the forest. the sidecar simply lifted and the sidecar wheel and frame didn't force me any more into a U-turnI'd love to try the same trick with a 2WD Ural!
Anyway the best of the sidecar in snow and ice is you have a FULL TIME STEERING + TRACTION BACK FEED. and still after loosing the grip you have the change to steer with your body weight and gas.
I call it Butt-steering.And the very last anchor is just jump off, something you cannot do with a car.
(except a convertible)
(had to do it from my Solo Norton Commander in Death Valley 1988)Sven
I see you have lots of experinece in northern Europe in winter.
What about sidecar rigs on ice?
I have a rigid sidecar but I think I would like a leaner for my R1200CL. Does anyone make them in the states?
mufasavnvmc - 2/14/2010 7:58 AM
I have a rigid sidecar but I think I would like a leaner for my R1200CL. Does anyone make them in the states?
Probably not.
Your options would be,
1) Look for used Flexit, Equalean, ARMEC sidewinder
You may find something for sale here http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/FlexitSidecarOwnersGroup/
2) Build your own
Oh, maybe there are ARMEC dealers in the states.
Sven,
No changes in gearing or wheel/tire sizes.
I have set up dozens of the '82-'83 XJs from 650 to 1100ccs with no chassis changes except wider bars on some and dampers on the steel bodied rigs.
These bikes are just about bulletproof, lots of low and and top end power, great anti dive front ends with dual front discs, shaft drive is element protected with smooth power delivery, great parts availability, most any shop will work on them and they are very affordable.
Next best choice is the early to mid '80s Magnas.
Lonnie
Skiri,
The Bonehaed run is Sponsored by the Vintage Motorcycle Ass'n. Loose rules are for bikes made before 1970 or Retro bikes and Riders born before 1946. As I said loose rules. Just about all are welcome to sign up and go. Quite a few older and off-road bikes are present. Penton, Greeves, Maico, Indian, Harley, Bultaco, you name it.
The solos do well in the logging trails, mud and gravel stretches but the hacks are better in the creekbeds and snow.
No 4 wheelers in this event. The jeeps track too wide for some of these trails.
Like with most off-road work the Jeeps will do fine but the Toyota Land Cruisers do better. Greater tip over angle for one helps here.
Lonnie
Hack'n - 2/14/2010 12:30 PM
Skiri,
The Bonehaed run is Sponsored by the Vintage Motorcycle Ass'n. Loose rules are for bikes made before 1970 or Retro bikes and Riders born before 1946. As I said loose rules. Just about all are welcome to sign up and go. Quite a few older and off-road bikes are present. Penton, Greeves, Maico, Indian, Harley, Bultaco, you name it.
The solos do well in the logging trails, mud and gravel stretches but the hacks are better in the creekbeds and snow.
No 4 wheelers in this event. The jeeps track too wide for some of these trails.
Like with most off-road work the Jeeps will do fine but the Toyota Land Cruisers do better. Greater tip over angle for one helps here.Lonnie
Sounds like a very interesting event. Though none of my bikes officially qualify. 🙂
Most of Yamaha XS/XJ Specials/Maxims got (relatively) fat 16 inch rear tires. I guess that's an advantage (lower contact pressure) against Ural's 19 inch thin tires in deep snow. It's just like Yamaha TW250.
Lonnie, that is a very good recomendation. I continue lurking.
Thank you very much
Skiri,
Rig + ice without spikes: You note inmediately as soon you loose traction on tire or steering way long before things become critical, so you have plenty of time to correct or slow down.
When you spin you have to be careful for the spot where you suddenly will get on sollid ground again. but normally the tires are so hard frozen that they will drift and you stay out of danger.
Rig + ice with spikes: plenty of grip and still You note inmediately when you forced it too much but then you have a lot more grip and possibilities to handle. (excellent to pull a dozen sleighs on the lake!)
What I love with the rig is that even when you accidentally drift, you have still a lot of options to steer by just weight shifting. Something you never have with a truck, or car Those masses simply push straight or spin uncontrollable.
Sorry, but a client needs some work to be done.
Sven
