I was just looking at the Armec site and there leaner's, the set up looks so simple that there's got to be more to it, anything that looks simple usually isn't, so what are the pro's and Con's on these cars, it didn't look like they were having a problem with right hand corners which if there was a problem that's where it would show up I would think, I also think that breaking in a tight right corner would tend to stand the bike up which could get interesting.
I had a Armec Sidwinder, no con's, as far as braking it had ABS even stopped in the snow. Two bolts and it was off. No need to run car tires, or mess with the front forks. Hey why did I sell that rig?
I built a leaner using a '99 Victory and modifiing a Ural sidecar frame.
Pros... Curvey roads are fun again. They lean and handle like a motorcycle is suppose to. Doesn't take any muscle to steer. (Long trips on twisty roads with the rigid setup was a workout.) Use motorcycle tires. Remove two bolts and your back on two wheels.
Cons... frame must get fairly low to ground in order to get good right hand lean angle. (some of that depends on the bike's ground clearance). Oh yeah, no 'flying the chair'.
I don't know why they are not more popular. The setup is simple. Just a bit of tweeking to find that neutral streering sweetspot.
Braking and accelerating does affect your steering a bit but no worse than with the rigid. After owning both setups I'll stick with the leaner.
Roy
I don't know why they are not more popular.
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That's exactly why I asked, maybe it has to do with tradition.
Oh well! If I can't fly the chair, then I wouldn't want one!
The number of leaner sidecars must be a very small percentage of the total numbers of sidecars. I suspect that the reason that there aren't more of them around is the fact that they are generally customs. I'm not aware of companies making them, although there may be one or two. I suspect that someone can tell us about that.
One of the negatives I could see would be possibly less carrying capacity. Most of them seem to be lighter rigs. I could be wrong about that since I've only seen a few of them down through the years and that was at bike gatherings and shows. I've yet to encounter one on my travels.
I do recall that there was one in Bud Ekins' collection of vintage motorcycles at one time. It was, as I recall, a very old vintage Indian twin with a custom leaning sidecar. It was in Cycle or Cycle World many years ago. Bud Ekins had a very extensive collection of motorcycles with any number of sidecars but I don't know what will happen to those machines now that he has passed away.
The negative thing for me would be that leaners lack the solidity of a standard sidecar. That is, a standard sidecar is solid and doesn't lean.
That doesn't mean that they aren't a viable alternative to a standard sidecar, I'm just using up bandwidth here.
gnm109 - 1/21/2010 5:15 PM
One of the negatives I could see would be possibly less carrying capacity. Most of them seem to be lighter rigs. I could be wrong about that since I've only seen a few of them down through the years and that was at bike gatherings and shows. I've yet to encounter one on my travels.
I haven't really tried but I don't see any reason why I can't carry a lot. One thing is that leaner sidecar doesn't need stiff suspension for stable left turns. Mine is really soft for smooth ride for my 40 lbs passenger. And I don't need wasted load (ballast) for stability. That's not good for gas mileage and braking performance.
One more possible pro:
You can carry an adult passenger on a motorcycle safer. (I haven't tried this either however.)
gnm109 - 1/21/2010 5:15 PM
The negative thing for me would be that leaners lack the solidity of a standard sidecar. That is, a standard sidecar is solid and doesn't lean.
This is actually a positive thing for me. I like to lean. 🙂
But I can see it's essential for people who lost strength/balance/etc. (And I see people who still have them still like rigid rigs.)
As for ARMEC, it's too specialized (BMW only?) and expensive. (Well now I know that sidecars are generally expensive, but still.)
Also the ground clearance looks too small.
What happens when you ride a leaner on loose pea gravel roads or gravel roads with three tire tracks or on a sand raod?
Mind you, riding a rigid on a normal gravel road, with three tire tracks typical of gravel roads: and the width of the outfit forces you to run either the mule's wheels in the looser gravel, or the chair's wheel in the loose stuff.
I'd love to hear a response from someone who owns a leaner and actually has ridden gravel a significant amount. My guess is a leaner on gravel has the disadvantage of a two wheeler plus the disadvantage of a three wheeler, all wrapped in to one package.
MikeS - 2/12/2010 7:44 PM
What happens when you ride a leaner on loose pea gravel roads or gravel roads with three tire tracks or on a sand raod?
Mind you, riding a rigid on a normal gravel road, with three tire tracks typical of gravel roads: and the width of the outfit forces you to run either the mule's wheels in the looser gravel, or the chair's wheel in the loose stuff.
I'd love to hear a response from someone who owns a leaner and actually has ridden gravel a significant amount. My guess is a leaner on gravel has the disadvantage of a two wheeler plus the disadvantage of a three wheeler, all wrapped in to one package.
I certainly agree. A leaner would be difficult on a rutted road.
I think that a leaner might be OK for a lighter machine but not for a Harley FL. One of the reasons I like a sidecar in the first place is the rigidity of the sidecar to the bike. That's part of the sidecar experience. On a Harley, there's hardly enough room beteen the bike and the tiub to begin with. I wouldn't care to change things.
There's a reason why there are few companies building leaners, a fact that forces most advocates to do their own. They are a niche market within a niche market. All of this is only my opinion, however. No one should stop work on their leaner project because of my ramblings. LOL.
MikeS - 2/12/2010 6:44 PM
What happens when you ride a leaner on loose pea gravel roads or gravel roads with three tire tracks or on a sand raod?
Mind you, riding a rigid on a normal gravel road, with three tire tracks typical of gravel roads: and the width of the outfit forces you to run either the mule's wheels in the looser gravel, or the chair's wheel in the loose stuff.
I'd love to hear a response from someone who owns a leaner and actually has ridden gravel a significant amount. My guess is a leaner on gravel has the disadvantage of a two wheeler plus the disadvantage of a three wheeler, all wrapped in to one package.
There are leaner dirt bike rigs so I guess they work fine...
Actually I built one. '79 XT500 + home built frame + infant high chair. Unfortunately my son was not so keen on sitting in a sidecar off road so I took it off the bike.
I put only 10 miles or so on fire trail and I didn't particularly like it. But I would guess it doesn't matter if it's a leaner or rigid. Dirt bikes, dual purpose, adventure bikes (w/o sidecar) are so much more nimble than rigid sidecar rigs. I don't have any problem riding them off road. That is if you have good balance. I don't really need a rigid rig to ride on gravel in order not to fall (at least for now.) Of course I may fall but I don't have a fear of falling yet even though I broke my collar bone twice in the past by falling.
I rode rigid rig on grass when I took STEP course. That was Suzuki Bandit 600 (sports bike) + Ural sidecar rig. I agree with the sidecar I didn't have to worry about falling and probably went faster than on solo Bandit.
I put 3~4000 miles on my leaner rig (XS750+Velo 562). Almost no gravel mileage (less than a mile.) But having a sidecar (even if it's a leaner) definately helps lean stability I think, due to the inertia of the sidecar.
I wonder how many heavy and shiny Harley rig owners want to ride on gravel though.. It's not good for bling.
skiri251 - 2/12/2010 8:58 PM
MikeS - 2/12/2010 6:44 PM
What happens when you ride a leaner on loose pea gravel roads or gravel roads with three tire tracks or on a sand raod?
Mind you, riding a rigid on a normal gravel road, with three tire tracks typical of gravel roads: and the width of the outfit forces you to run either the mule's wheels in the looser gravel, or the chair's wheel in the loose stuff.
I'd love to hear a response from someone who owns a leaner and actually has ridden gravel a significant amount. My guess is a leaner on gravel has the disadvantage of a two wheeler plus the disadvantage of a three wheeler, all wrapped in to one package.
There are leaner dirt bike rigs so I guess they work fine...
Actually I built one. '79 XT500 + home built frame + infant high chair. Unfortunately my son was not so keen on sitting in a sidecar off road so I took it off the bike.
I put only 10 miles or so on fire trail and I didn't particularly like it. But I would guess it doesn't matter if it's a leaner or rigid. Dirt bikes, dual purpose, adventure bikes (w/o sidecar) are so much more nimble than rigid sidecar rigs. I don't have any problem riding them off road. That is if you have good balance. I don't really need a rigid rig to ride on gravel in order not to fall (at least for now.) Of course I may fall but I don't have a fear of falling yet even though I broke my collar bone twice in the past by falling.I rode rigid rig on grass when I took STEP course. That was Suzuki Bandit 600 (sports bike) + Ural sidecar rig. I agree with the sidecar I didn't have to worry about falling and probably went faster than on solo Bandit.
I put 3~4000 miles on my leaner rig (XS750+Velo 562). Almost no gravel mileage (less than a mile.) But having a sidecar (even if it's a leaner) definately helps lean stability I think, due to the inertia of the sidecar.
I wonder how many heavy and shiny Harley rig owners want to ride on gravel though.. It's not good for bling.
No problem with gravel. I just don't ride on it. The rubber belt will easily get damaged if it picks up gravel.
I've ridden Hare and Hounds in the California desert for more than ten yeaes. I never saw even so much as one leaner. I can't imagine running one in the desert in the uneven terrain. I did see a standard dirt hack rig from time to time in enduros. I rode the two day Jack Pine National in Michigan in the 1950;s and finished it four times on a BSA Go;d Star. There were a few sidecars in that run, notably Dot Robinson, founder of the Motor Maids and an avid sidecar rider. There may have been a leaner in that run but I never saw one in my times there.
Love them or hate them, they are extremely rare.
i had a sidecar in the very early 80's - mostly so i could carry tools to job sites in the mountains...... long story
but the last straw a few years back was that my left foot goes to sleep sometimes after 45 mins or so... stop signs are a b*&^ when you dont know if your left foot will hold or not... two up its scary when i had to use the front brake only at stop signs so i could stop on the right foot... so it was sell the bike and give up for life.. or get a trike or sidecar.. i chose the last...
a leaner for me - would be a really bad idea
to
timo482 - 2/12/2010 9:38 PM
i had a sidecar in the very early 80's - mostly so i could carry tools to job sites in the mountains...... long story
but the last straw a few years back was that my left foot goes to sleep sometimes after 45 mins or so... stop signs are a b*&^ when you dont know if your left foot will hold or not... two up its scary when i had to use the front brake only at stop signs so i could stop on the right foot... so it was sell the bike and give up for life.. or get a trike or sidecar.. i chose the last...
a leaner for me - would be a really bad idea
to
There you go! That's another reason that I might also have mentioned - Sidecars simply don't fall over when you come to a stop light or park. I got back into sidecarring when I had some terrible problems with my left hip and thigh. Now that it's working better again, I still like the standard sidecar setup.
Honestly, I can't understand why a person would want a leaner. Sure, it feels more like a motorcycle, but it's also got a lot of extra weight and it's not ever going to handle as freely and smoothly as a solo bike. Furthermore, there is weight imposed on the handling of the motorcycle by the sidecar where it connects with the flexible links. But I mean that in a nice way.................. 🙂
That said, too each his or her own; different strokes for different folks and de gustibus non est disputandum.
gnm109 - 2/13/2010 6:19 AM
timo482 - 2/12/2010 9:38 PM
i had a sidecar in the very early 80's - mostly so i could carry tools to job sites in the mountains...... long story
but the last straw a few years back was that my left foot goes to sleep sometimes after 45 mins or so... stop signs are a b*&^ when you dont know if your left foot will hold or not... two up its scary when i had to use the front brake only at stop signs so i could stop on the right foot... so it was sell the bike and give up for life.. or get a trike or sidecar.. i chose the last...
a leaner for me - would be a really bad idea
to
There you go! That's another reason that I might also have mentioned - Sidecars simply don't fall over when you come to a stop light or park. I got back into sidecarring when I had some terrible problems with my left hip and thigh. Now that it's working better again, I still like the standard sidecar setup.
Honestly, I can't understand why a person would want a leaner. Sure, it feels more like a motorcycle, but it's also got a lot of extra weight and it's not ever going to handle as freely and smoothly as a solo bike. Furthermore, there is weight imposed on the handling of the motorcycle by the sidecar where it connects with the flexible links. But I mean that in a nice way.................. 🙂
That said, too each his or her own; different strokes for different folks and de gustibus non est disputandum.
That's another pro on leaners then. 🙂
Leaner rigs can easily be converted to rigids when your circumstance requires it. It's just a matter of attaching two structs.
I will definately do that if my legs quit working.
I have nothing against rigids. I started with one. I even took STEP course. What I can't stand is slow right turns.
And again I know that's hugely due to my rigs (CB750K+Velo526, BSA A65+Velo526) and their setup.
Maybe I should try high performance rigid rigs.
I want this one! LOL
gnm109 - 2/12/2010 8:12 PM
No problem with gravel. I just don't ride on it. The rubber belt will easily get damaged if it picks up gravel.
I've ridden Hare and Hounds in the California desert for more than ten yeaes. I never saw even so much as one leaner. I can't imagine running one in the desert in the uneven terrain. I did see a standard dirt hack rig from time to time in enduros. I rode the two day Jack Pine National in Michigan in the 1950;s and finished it four times on a BSA Go;d Star. There were a few sidecars in that run, notably Dot Robinson, founder of the Motor Maids and an avid sidecar rider. There may have been a leaner in that run but I never saw one in my times there.
Love them or hate them, they are extremely rare.
Oh, the belt drive. So you can't ride Harley on gravel with or without a sidecar.
How did rigid sidecar rigs do againat solo motorcycles in desert runs? Were they finished higher than solo bikes?
They got power/weight ratio disadvantage to begin with.
What was the reason for using sidecar rigs? (I guess sidecars were still relatively popular back then so people just wanted to race them..)
Any advantages other than being able to carry a lot of stuff?
Not falling is not enough for giving up solo bike's nimbleness...
skiri251 - 2/13/2010 7:56 AM
gnm109 - 2/12/2010 8:12 PM
No problem with gravel. I just don't ride on it. The rubber belt will easily get damaged if it picks up gravel.
I've ridden Hare and Hounds in the California desert for more than ten yeaes. I never saw even so much as one leaner. I can't imagine running one in the desert in the uneven terrain. I did see a standard dirt hack rig from time to time in enduros. I rode the two day Jack Pine National in Michigan in the 1950;s and finished it four times on a BSA Go;d Star. There were a few sidecars in that run, notably Dot Robinson, founder of the Motor Maids and an avid sidecar rider. There may have been a leaner in that run but I never saw one in my times there.
Love them or hate them, they are extremely rare.
Oh, the belt drive. So you can't ride Harley on gravel with or without a sidecar.
How did rigid sidecar rigs do againat solo motorcycles in desert runs? Were they finished higher than solo bikes?
They got power/weight ratio disadvantage to begin with.
What was the reason for using sidecar rigs? (I guess sidecars were still relatively popular back then so people just wanted to race them..)
Any advantages other than being able to carry a lot of stuff?
Not falling is not enough for giving up solo bike's nimbleness...
I didn't say that one can't ride a Harley on gravel. I said that I don't do so.
Sidecars always had their own class in the desert and in enduros. They can't compete with solos in the dirt nor do they attempt to do so. Since they are (were) in a different class, power to weight ratio is not an issue.
There are (were) whole clubs that raced sidecars. I formerly took photos of desert racers and there were whole groups that raced them.
Leaners are never used in racing anymore. I understand that there were some used on board tracks but that hasn't been around for a long time.
Watch the Isle of Man TT sometime. They have the absolute best sidecar racers in the world at the TT. There are no leaners (at least I've yet to see one) . They rely on the stability offered by the sidecar frame, plus the agility of the "monkey" (passenger) and rider to get around the corners. A leaner in such a situation at 140 mph would be at an extreme disadvantage.
I'm just offering my reasons for having a standard sidecar. If I want the nimblenes of a solo bike, I will unbolt the sidecar and go for a ride. There is no free lunch when it comes to a sidecar. To say that a leaner has the same feel as a solo i stretching a point.
It's nothing about which we should disagree. If you like leaners, that's fine. I doubt they will be very popular at any time. They have always been extremely rare and will probably continue to be so.
