Originally written by gnm109 on 10/20/2006 9:06 AM
Originally written by Reardan Tom on 10/20/2006 5:17 AM
In the new Hack'd mag there is an interview with Bob Darden of Texas Sidecars. I'm thinking you'd do well to get in touch with him. www.texassidecars.com or 903-640-2149. Better to deal with someone who knows what they're doing and quit messing with the other guys... Don't know how far Leonard, TX is from you but he might just be the closest.
i agree, if you don't do your own work, it's a good idea to find someone who can help you out. Unfortunately, I was born poor and had to fend for myself , especially with motorcycles and sidecars.
I can't go near the Harley dealer, either. They get $90 dollars an hour!!!!!!!!!
OBTW, seeing your signature line with the reference to dyslexics made me smile. I recall an old joke.
There was this insomniac, agnostic, dyslexic fellow who used to lay awake all night wondering if there really was a dog.
That's funny. I don't have to wonder, he's sleeping just off the foot of the bed...
Hope I didn't give the impression I was thinking he shouldn't listen to your advise. I was referring to the H-D shop he was dealing with who don't know beans about the installation of his car. Last time I had my bike in the shop here, the tech wrote up a list of stuff he thought was wrong and dagerous. All of it sidecar related. Like the triple trees. And what he wrote up would certainly apply to a solo bike but I wouldn't have and didn't do it to my bike when it was a solo. I don't doubt this guy is a great H-D tech but he made it very obvious he don't know beans about that overgrown saddlebag running along side...
As for the 2007 big twins overheating, no surprise... an air cooled engine with the front cylinder blocking the rear's shot of cooling air can't put out much power for long. Putting bigger pistons on merely allows a bit more short term power output, but the continious sustainable power output of a HOG(NYSE) big twin is still pretty pitiful. The V-Rod's 100+ watercooled horses is a better solution, but HOG(NYSE) dealers refuse to support that model, so you're on your own for after sale support.
As for the HOG(NYSE) 'hack, there are more contemporary solutions out there. Even if you want a vintage look for display purposes in front of the local purveyor of licensed beverages, there are more functional and authetic sidecars available from Liberty, Motorvation, etc.
A customer who has just contributed a five figure sum to HOG(NYSE)'s and their dealers bottom lines deserves more than a barely functional vehicle. Many states cover motorcycles under their "lemon law"- if HOG(NYSE) can't fix their product, you may be entitled to a refund.
RND
i really dont have any troubles with my 04 car on my 07 ultra - id "like" radial tires id "like" trees, i LOVE the harley police seat - but this is my third hd with a car since 80 & ive never had trouble - one caveat - the more you know about riding a bike - the less you know about riding a hack.
as for me, here and now, my wife has 5 bad disks, she can ride all day in the harley car and be a happy chick that night - or ride 15 mins on the bike and be miserable for 30 days. so i have spent the time and have the motivation to read all the harley paperwork in detail and study all the pictures & purchase all the special tools - because me making it work right makes SWIMBO happy and that makes everybody happy..
that said - your issues & what little bit i know:
if the pedal is too close to the footboard - then you probably have the footboard in the top position - it shows in the installation diag that it should be down. there is about a inch of vertical adjustment in the floor boards - for sidecar use they MUST be clear down - i can get my bunny cold weather boots under the pedal. [im assssssumign you have the proper pedal!!!! not a factory 04 or later pedal - you MUST have a sidecar pedal - if you dont have the proper pedal DONT RIDE TILL YOU DO _ YOU ARE RISKING YOUR LIFE!. the proper pedal is a PRE 04 pedal. it comes from the factory WITH the sidecar.] used sidecars usually have all this stuff stripped off & folks think they are saving cash - they are not, the car is cheap because the 250 little parts packed with the car are not there.
the sidecar comes from the factory with a special latch that deals with opening the right saddle bag. typically it gets installed on the bike - then when its a "used" sidecar the second owner doesnt get all that stuff & YOU NEED IT. if its a new bike and new sidecar - it came with the latch - possibly the mech didnt install it.
they also come from the factory with a steering stabilizer..
there is no factory way to have a oil cooler on a bike with a car - never has been - the cooler and its lines run where the sidecar master cyl lines go. - says this in every blurb for coolers & the sidecars on the web and in the parts book - the mech knew that - but the guy who sold it did not, im sure.
they DO run hot - two known fixes - there is a fan made that bolts to the left side of the engine and will help cool it but it does not come on till its pretty hot, it cools it right down [dealers call it a parade fan] - or you put on a race tuner and a high flow air cleaner and have the guy on the dyno work on it - telling him you want it to idle cooler. there are quite a few cases of folks doing that and it DOES cool them off. if the shop does not have a dyno in house - GO SOMEWHERE THAT DOES its a waste of good cash to tune it with no dyno.
if its aligned properly you should be able to set the cruise on 85 loaded or unloaded and go down the road with two fingers on the left bar - if you cant do that its NOT adjusted properly
the tires and rear shocks have to be at max pressure or it will squirl around like there is no tomorow and steer really hard [it says that in the sidecar service manual by the way]
if you dont change the trees steering effort will always be high other than straight ahead - im thinking of getting trees but between home and work there are only 3 turns taken at over 20mph so it may be pointless. the harley tech i know that has installed a number of cars says they do not change the trees because the high steering effort makes it less likely somebody will roll the car.... fwiw
later
to
That's funny. I don't have to wonder, he's sleeping just off the foot of the bed...
Hope I didn't give the impression I was thinking he shouldn't listen to your advise. I was referring to the H-D shop he was dealing with who don't know beans about the installation of his car. Last time I had my bike in the shop here, the tech wrote up a list of stuff he thought was wrong and dagerous. All of it sidecar related. Like the triple trees. And what he wrote up would certainly apply to a solo bike but I wouldn't have and didn't do it to my bike when it was a solo. I don't doubt this guy is a great H-D tech but he made it very obvious he don't know beans about that overgrown saddlebag running along side...
Not at all. No problem. Most techs don't know anything abouyt Harley sidecars. They aren't trained. One really must learn to be a hack mechanic to get the best results.
Originally written by SideCarOne on 10/20/2006 9:50 AM
As for the 2007 big twins overheating, no surprise... an air cooled engine with the front cylinder blocking the rear's shot of cooling air can't put out much power for long. Putting bigger pistons on merely allows a bit more short term power output, but the continious sustainable power output of a HOG(NYSE) big twin is still pretty pitiful. The V-Rod's 100+ watercooled horses is a better solution, but HOG(NYSE) dealers refuse to support that model, so you're on your own for after sale support.
As for the HOG(NYSE) 'hack, there are more contemporary solutions out there. Even if you want a vintage look for display purposes in front of the local purveyor of licensed beverages, there are more functional and authetic sidecars available from Liberty, Motorvation, etc.
A customer who has just contributed a five figure sum to HOG(NYSE)'s and their dealers bottom lines deserves more than a barely functional vehicle. Many states cover motorcycles under their "lemon law"- if HOG(NYSE) can't fix their product, you may be entitled to a refund.
Let's put your post in perspective.
1. You seem to be negative on V-Twin air cooled engines.
2. You also seem to be negative on Harley-Davidson in general and the Harley Owners Group in particular. I've never heard the NYSE as part of the Harley Owners Group title....Or do you mean Harley-Davidson, the company? Maybe that's it. I do understand that they are a publically traded company.
3. The FL Harleys have ample power and adequate torque to pull a sidecar. That's been true for many years.
Liberty and Motorvation are both nice-looking sidecars. I'm sure they would also look great in front of a bar. Neither of them, however, fully addresses the connection issues to a Harley FL. For example, there are changes needed in the bank angle sensor and the brake pedal and reservoir which Harley points out and which they have made part of their connection package. These are critical safety issues which are not addressed by third-party providers.
I was very interested in purchasing a Liberty until I discovered that they use modified Harley mounts and that welding a mounting-point nut on the frame and some carving on the seat are required to mount the fourth brace. Uh uh, not me.
Also, the liberty actually costs a similar price to the Harley TLE if you factor in paint and the triple trees, which I was told by Liberty are mandatory on their equipment for proper steering.
What I do know, is that all sidecars require a great deal of care both in setup and tuning to get them right. The dealers, that includes Honda and others, really don't see much in the way of sidecar work and they really aren't trained for it. Therefore, if you cannot do your own work, you really should go to a specialist as recommended above.
Respectfully, no one is going to force you to buy a Harley, either solo or with a sidecar. That's why they have so many brands of bike and sidecar.
Regards,
GNM109
P.S. Isn't this a great thread?
Thanks for all the feed back. I rode the bike for a month before the car came in so I had about 1500 miles to get the feel of it. They would not ship the bike with ABS since I ordered them both at the same time. The master cylander had to be removed and replaced with another, that is not compatible with ABS. I wanted it back so I could put the bike back in it's original condition, when I sell it in the future, but I was told that they had to break it to remove it so it's junk. They said the rear pedal had to be changed to prevent it from hitting the frame when the brakes wore, but after inspecting the one that was put on the bike it will hit also, so I am going to change the thing back to original. I don't know for sure but the guy who set it up said according to factory specs the bike should have a 1% lean into the car and the car should have a 1% lean into the bike. That kind of blew me away due to everything I have read but the mechanic insisted he was right, so I just ordered a sidecar manual for myself to get the right info. I have tried to call harley to get the straight skinny on the removal of the oil cooler, which I was told came on the bike from the factory due to the 103 they went with and needed to stay their but then I was told it would'nt fit and not to worry. Oh well, I really like the set up and if I have to do my own engineering I will get the thing worked out, 'cause the thing runs great and has got plenty of power and snape. Crotch Rockets Beware! no more lost persuits, at least when the side car is off. I am going to call for some assistance as was suggested. I'll keep you informed. Also, any other suggestions will be greatly appreciated.
I have an 04 Road King Custom with a 04 TLE. The original owner purchased it assembled from a dealer in Ohio. I have no idea if that dealer knows sidecars but can tell you the bike leanded into the car quite a bit (2~3 degrees) and It pulled to the right a fair amount. My only previous experince with a hack was on a friend's FJ1100 Yamaha with a French made "Sidebike" so my point of refernce was well,.....none. My HD as recieved did not pull as much as that rig! That thing scared me silly.
Based on advice from this forum, I set the lean to 0 and gave it a go. It tracks straight down the road accelerating to 70 mph with barely noticble pull to the left under braking. This is with and empty side car. I never even checked the toe in. Now, with a 160 lbs passenger things are not as rosie. It pulls a bit to the right under acceleration and even more to the left braking. I'm thinking that it may require 1 degree of lean out (away from the car) when carrying a passenger. My two cents for what it's worth.
Originally written by Kirk on 10/20/2006 4:20 PM
I have an 04 Road King Custom with a 04 TLE. The original owner purchased it assembled from a dealer in Ohio. I have no idea if that dealer knows sidecars but can tell you the bike leanded into the car quite a bit (2~3 degrees) and It pulled to the right a fair amount. My only previous experince with a hack was on a friend's FJ1100 Yamaha with a French made "Sidebike" so my point of refernce was well,.....none. My HD as recieved did not pull as much as that rig! That thing scared me silly.
Based on advice from this forum, I set the lean to 0 and gave it a go. It tracks straight down the road accelerating to 70 mph with barely noticble pull to the left under braking. This is with and empty side car. I never even checked the toe in. Now, with a 160 lbs passenger things are not as rosie. It pulls a bit to the right under acceleration and even more to the left braking. I'm thinking that it may require 1 degree of lean out (away from the car) when carrying a passenger. My two cents for what it's worth.
In the Harley manual, they mention a magnetically-mounted protractor. (Sears # 9GT 3984 or equivalent). This can be mounted to a level point on your bike such as a luggage rack to tell the exact amount of lean-in or lean-out in degrees. It can also be placed upside down on the sidecar frame to determine whether it is level as it should be. I've had one of these for years and they work very well.
The book says 3/4" to 1" toe in with sidecar wheel vertical. The machine should be set 1 degree or so lean-in so that, when you sit on it, it is vertical at 0 degree lean-in.
One thing that would be really nice for most sidecars and Harleys in paricular would be an electric lean device. They are made for some sidecars but Liberty and Harley haven't yet done so.
Even if you get the sidecar perfect for a flat freeway road, it will still change characteristics when you are on a country road with a relatively high crown. It will also change according to load and number of passengers.
I've found that extra weight on the sidecar axle will help somewhat to stabilize things but it's not the ultimate. Harley used to sell a 45 pound cast iron weight that would bolt to the right spring. It was sort of expensive, though.....about $150.00 for 45 pounds of cast iron! I notice that they no longer offer these.
Another difficulty with the Harley sidecar is the rear mount. Harley provides a couple of U-bolts and two socket head set screws in hopes that this wil prevent it from moving once the sidecar is set on place. Usually, it will slip, especially when you hit a bump. This causes the lean angle to change. It also digs gouges into the tubing where the screws contact.
The cure for this is to make a steel cap that that will replace the U-bolts. This is held in place with four 5-16-18 bolts through the mount into the cap so that it holds the frame tube tightly. I've built several of these and they really work.
It sounds like you're getting it, though.
Regards,
gnm109
The magnetic angle guage (protractor) is inexpensive and available at most any hardware or builders supply.
I place it on a front brake rotor with the front wheel pointed directly ahead. That way it can be read from sitting on the bike.
I set up for about 1 degree of leanout with the driver aboard and the boat laden with the expected load that will be carried. I use these parameters for initial alignment for all combos, including Harleys.
Further tweaking is sometimes needed for different loadings and the type of roads most travelled, whether superslab or high crowned backroads.
This has worked quite well for hundreds of outfits.
Lonnie
HOG is the stock abreviation for the Harley Davidson Motor Company. As for cooling V-twins, there is always the watercooled strategy that Porsche used with the V-Rod for HOG(NYSE) and the Japanese manufacturers have used similar designs. Better cooling can also be had as well as less vibration by widening the V as Ducati has done and angling the front cyinder nearly horizontal so both cylinders get a clear shot at cooling air when in motion, Another strategy is to mount the V-Twin transversly as Moto Guzzi has done, putting both cylinders right out in the airstream.
Originally written by SideCarOne on 10/21/2006 12:06 AM
HOG is the stock abreviation for the Harley Davidson Motor Company. As for cooling V-twins, there is always the watercooled strategy that Porsche used with the V-Rod for HOG(NYSE) and the Japanese manufacturers have used similar designs. Better cooling can also be had as well as less vibration by widening the V as Ducati has done and angling the front cyinder nearly horizontal so both cylinders get a clear shot at cooling air when in motion, Another strategy is to mount the V-Twin transversly as Moto Guzzi has done, putting both cylinders right out in the airstream.
These days HOG more commonly refers to Harley Owners Group. The H-D international club of, what else? Harley owners!
Originally written by SideCarOne on 10/21/2006 12:54 AM
HOG is the stock abreviation for the Harley Davidson Motor Company. As for cooling V-twins, there is always the watercooled strategy that Porsche used with the V-Rod for HOG(NYSE) and the Japanese manufacturers have used similar designs. Better cooling can also be had as well as less vibration by widening the V as Ducati has done and angling the front cyinder nearly horizontal so both cylinders get a clear shot at cooling air when in motion, Another strategy is to mount the V-Twin transversly as Moto Guzzi has done, putting both cylinders right out in the airstream.
So you're suggesting that I should buy a Japanese bike or an Ialian machine like a Moto Guzzi or a Ducati to keep things cool and well-balanced, eh?
Gosh, I'm so confused........
Well, that'd be one solution... And for the price of one HOG(NYSE) sidecar approved big twin you could buy two Guzzis or Japanese bikes, giving you the option of 'hacking one and riding the other solo. But if you're starting from scratch and building a sidecar outfit, it's best to start with a bike with a horizontal engine for a low center of gravity- like a BMW boxer or inline K bike, Gold Wing, or Valkrie.
Tell me more about this Gold Wing with the lower center of gravity than a Harley.
Lonnie
Originally written by SideCarOne on 10/21/2006 8:30 AM
Well, that'd be one solution... And for the price of one HOG(NYSE) sidecar approved big twin you could buy two Guzzis or Japanese bikes, giving you the option of 'hacking one and riding the other solo. But if you're starting from scratch and building a sidecar outfit, it's best to start with a bike with a horizontal engine for a low center of gravity- like a BMW boxer or inline K bike, Gold Wing, or Valkrie.
Meaning no disrespect but I'm beginning to feel bad. The tone of your discussions to date is somewhat presumptuous in that it assumes that I know nothing of motorcycles, cooling systems, balance, sidecars, values and so forth.
I happen to be what they call a Geezer in motorcycle parlance. Among the 40 or so motorcycles that I've owned since 1953 there have been several solo Hondas and two Harleys with Harley TLE sidecars of my own.
One of the Hondas was a solo 1994 SE that had not had proper maintenance from the prior owner. It had the water pump, radiators and the thermostatic water valve all go bad within a year. It cost me over a grand to put it right doing my own labor. So I'm pleased in that my Harley needs none of that. This is one reason that I dislike liquid-cooled motorcycles intensely.
There are two Honda dealers near me and 6 Harley dealers, all within a 40 mile radius. So, I guess I could get parts for either. There are no Ducati or Guzzi dealers anywhere near me. There is a BMW dealer but he's unfriendly so he's out.
My point is that everything you have said about cooling, balance and so forth is true. It's just that you seem to presume that I and others aren't aware of these things.
I don't think we are arguing, though. You like Japanese and Italian motorcycles and I don't. What's there to discuss?
Happy Trails.
gnm109
