Further update...
I rode my sidecar rig to work this morning. Before I left I checked the front tire pressure -- 28 pounds per square inch, just as I had set it previously.
I took the road I normally ride to work and jammed on the front brake where I had experienced my sudden, unintended lane change in the face of a wrong-side-of-the-road SUV. The tire howled, but the rig stopped quickly and dead straight!
I was a bit nervous executing this test, so I might not have jammed on the brake as vigorously as I had the morning of the near-accident. But, damn it, the result was very, very reassuring! The rig handled the sudden stop with comforting predictability. No effing way am I going back to the Metzeler tire!
When I got to work I took a minute to check the air pressure again -- 29 pounds per square inch. The tire pressure had increased less than 4% from dead cold to passably warm. I have been told, by those who claim to know, that your tire pressure should increase by about 10% from cold to full operating temperature. So it seems I haven't under-inflated the tire. Or at least not severely.
I'll run more tests on the tire pressure. I don't think I'll decrease it any further, whatever the results. But I'm not in a rush to increase it, either. I'm too happy with the grip I'm getting now.
It's kinda early to pronounce scientific conclusions from all this, but my preliminary findings follow:
YOU WANT A GOOD, GRIPPY TIRE ON THE FRONT!!!
I have serious concerns about automotive-style tires on the front -- really! Long tread life be damned -- the front tire is going to be both steering and stopping your rig in an emergency braking maneuver, and any compromise on grip is at the risk of your life!
You can economize on the rear tire and the hack tire, if you feel the need, but don't scrimp on the front!
And it seems that you don't have to go to exotic racing rubber to get that grip. My Dunlop is a good motorcycle tire, but it isn't a track-day tire. It does, however, have a lot of water-shedding sipes down the center of the tire, which I think are necessary for long-distance riding. So I've consciously chosen to give up ultimate dry-weather grab for life-saving wet-weather performance.
Right now I'm feeling a ton better about my rig. I'll report back again when I have more to report.
Best,
Ed Bianchi
Delaware USA
'87 K75C/Dauntless "Lady Carol"
Ed Bianchi - 4/26/2011 2:51 PM
Further update...
I rode my sidecar rig to work this morning. Before I left I checked the front tire pressure -- 28 pounds per square inch, just as I had set it previously.
I took the road I normally ride to work and jammed on the front brake where I had experienced my sudden, unintended lane change in the face of a wrong-side-of-the-road SUV. The tire howled, but the rig stopped quickly and dead straight!
I was a bit nervous executing this test, so I might not have jammed on the brake as vigorously as I had the morning of the near-accident. But, damn it, the result was very, very reassuring! The rig handled the sudden stop with comforting predictability. No effing way am I going back to the Metzeler tire!
When I got to work I took a minute to check the air pressure again -- 29 pounds per square inch. The tire pressure had increased less than 4% from dead cold to passably warm. I have been told, by those who claim to know, that your tire pressure should increase by about 10% from cold to full operating temperature. So it seems I haven't under-inflated the tire. Or at least not severely.
I'll run more tests on the tire pressure. I don't think I'll decrease it any further, whatever the results. But I'm not in a rush to increase it, either. I'm too happy with the grip I'm getting now.
It's kinda early to pronounce scientific conclusions from all this, but my preliminary findings follow:
YOU WANT A GOOD, GRIPPY TIRE ON THE FRONT!!!
I have serious concerns about automotive-style tires on the front -- really! Long tread life be damned -- the front tire is going to be both steering and stopping your rig in an emergency braking maneuver, and any compromise on grip is at the risk of your life!
You can economize on the rear tire and the hack tire, if you feel the need, but don't scrimp on the front!
And it seems that you don't have to go to exotic racing rubber to get that grip. My Dunlop is a good motorcycle tire, but it isn't a track-day tire. It does, however, have a lot of water-shedding sipes down the center of the tire, which I think are necessary for long-distance riding. So I've consciously chosen to give up ultimate dry-weather grab for life-saving wet-weather performance.
Right now I'm feeling a ton better about my rig. I'll report back again when I have more to report.
Best,
Ed Bianchi
Delaware USA
'87 K75C/Dauntless "Lady Carol"
Yes sir it is a lot of good info, and d404 good tire, but claude is right and i can't say any better: "Was the front wheel locked up when you braked hard? If so you would not be able to steer. Yes, you can ad a sidecar brake but it WILL NOT be a cure all in panic situations! You need to practice hard braking under various conditions. It is also advisable to not just rely on braking but learn to try and develope some evasive maneuvors. P R A C T I C E in a safe place and try to do so above your comfort zone. THAT will do you worlds of good."
I never doubted practice and skill are essential to safe operation of a sidecar. But even the most skillful operator needs good equipment to ride safely. My lousy came-with front tire made my rig unsafe. With the new front tire and the proper tire inflation it is worlds safer. I have to TRY to lock my front wheel now! I spent less than $100 to change the front tire, and it was worth every penny.
I wonder how many other sidecar operators there are who have less-than-optimum rubber on the front? They are unknowingly putting themselves, and their passengers, at unnecessary risk. People should learn that a good front tire is CRITICAL for controlled emergency braking, regardless of your skill!
Ed Bianchi
Nothing wrong with new tire, but don't kid yourself your deal with tire pressure have nothing to do with "Grippy Front Tire". Most likely you lock your tire in panic stop making your rig unstearable.
"People should learn that a good front tire is CRITICAL for controlled emergency braking, regardless of your skill! "
They should also learn that both front and rear brakes should be used when operating a sidecar rig for optimum stopping. Many long time solo riders forget , or are unaware, of this and depend on the front brake only which will lock up and cause a loss of control in a panic stop.
L.
Another update on my new Dunlop D404F front tire...
My wife and I went to the Pennsylvania Airhead's 'Tent Float' this past weekend, and logged about 310 miles round trip. That included a couple hundred highway miles at up to 75mph and a fair bit of winding back roads in the 40 to 50mph range. Since I was hauling a passenger and camping gear I upped the front tire pressure to 30psi. That's still a lower inflation than I'd use on a motorcycle, but I wanted lots of rubber on the ground.
The trip up on Friday involved running through some very heavy rain showers. I was quite glad that the Dunlop D404F has lots of rain sipes where it counts. I never felt I was hydroplaning. Cornering and stopping were good. I certainly did not try anything extreme. Nor, fortunately, did I have to.
Saturday and Sunday the weather was dry. No issues.
I remain VERY glad I've upgraded the front tire. I still need to work out just what the proper inflation should be, but for now I'll stick with 28 to 30psi.
Lonnie Cook's recommendation that you use both front and rear brakes to obtain optimum stopping is a good one. I tend to use the front brake by itself more often than I should. I do use both front and rear together, but I need to do so more consistently. Like every single time!
Best,
Ed Bianchi
Delaware USA
'87 K75C/Dauntless "Lady Carol"
Sidecar tires are flat tread blocks, such as car tires result in a much larger footprint of the rings round. A much larger footprint = more traction arrest.
On my last tour, during an 80 mile storm front in Colorado in gullywasher rain I tried to make a quick stop with the 2010 Street Glide's OEM front 18" D408 (dual compound technology) tires on the bike and sidecar. Instant htdroplaning resulted.
On my return home to Idaho I ordered and installed two 18" D402 Dunlops which have a more aggressive tread pattern. The D402's were OEM in earlier years and never hydroplaned.
The D408s were worn out at 10K miles so I'll see what mileage the D402s deliver. Whether more or less I won't have to worry about hydroplaning in the fall and winter driving season.
L.
I have often been bemused by folks who address tire wear by installing rock hard tires at the expense of traction. Better rubber up front(and at the rear as well) will certainly improve handling.
However, if you are convinced your front tire was not locked up, more traction will increase rather than decrease the tendency for the rig to pivot left under hard braking. This sounds like a technique problem more than anything else. You need to use more rear brake initially and increase pressure at the front brake as weight transfers forward during your stop, increasing traction and braking power at the front contact patch. At the same time, as you have noted, you need to steer to counter the yaw induced by braking. Not using the rear brake effectively will magnify the yaw to the left and increase your stopping distances significantly.
A well balanced sidecar brake can address this issue as well, although it will be a compromise as others have pointed out. You will need to adjust it so it is balanced best for the speeds and loads which you find most useful. DMC is very good at installing and setting up a good sidecar brake. Since they built your rig, it would make sense for you to contact them about a sidecar brake.
And if you haven't taken a S/TEP class, consider doing so. Learning to drive the rig well can be the best investment you can make in your sidecar
Hello
I am running a Kawasaki GTR and Monaco and run a continental tyre on the front at 43psi it does not slide under braking, although I guess I could provoke a slide by applying the front brake more than 75% when in a bend and the chair heavily loaded.
Really important to use both front and rear brakes correctly, I do not have a sidecar brake and the plot seems to handle fairly well it has L/L forks which do prevent the the fork sliders grabbing in a turn and locking up the front suspension.
Regards
Barry in the UK (maybe I am not going fast enough)
I had a 2007 FLFTCU with a TLE. Have ridden it with and without sidecar brake. I like the brake. Only time bike slewed hard to the left was hard application of front break. relearning to apply rear break then front brake to prevent slew to left was just practice. Now have 2008 with ABS hate love affair, longer distance on panic stops for sure. Rig does not slew at all. weird brake pedal feel when panic stopping, noisy too. I run dunlops. Not to say other tires are better or worse I just stay with what the bike came with. if bike slews to left the front tire is acting as a pivot point. not enough rear brake or side car brake. front of bike is stopping side car is pushing the bike left as it is creating centrifical force.
If the front tire SKIDS to the left, the rig is pivoting about the REAR tire, which may or may not be providing braking force. The momentum of the sidecar provides the torque which causes the yaw left.
Lockup of the front tire is the issue. Rider skill may or may not be the problem. Lots of good, grippy rubber on the ground helps, regardless. To heck with tire life, I'm much more concerned with RIDER life.
Anyway, front tires on motorcycles last a very long time -- much longer than rear tires. I suspect the same is true with sidecar rigs. (That opinion is not based on experience -- I could be wrong.) If I am right, then there's not much to lose and a lot to gain by going to a soft, grippy tire up front.
Barry,
to my time in UK (Yorkshire and Scotland early 80ees) I can remember that your asphalt was WAY more grippy then the asphalt in Germany or here in Costa Rica.
Have a pint on it.
Sven
ok lets see i have only ridden about 40 thousand miles with my sidecar attached. Both grandsons ride in the car loaded with tent cooler and a bunch of other junk. We live in Louisiana, and go to Daytona in the spring Sturgis in the summer. All types of road surfaces encountered. dirt to concrete. temps from below freezing to 108. I have yet to have the rig pivot around the rear tire. too much front brake, the rig will pivot to the left. meaning it is pivoting around the front tire. Please tell me how you can make a rig pivot to the right. the front tire locked up would feel like it was skidding to the left but the reality is the side car is pushing the front to the left. the rear tire can loose traction and lift. As I said to act as a pivot not in my experience.
