SidecarMike - 12/14/2009 9:04 AM
gnm109 - 12/14/2009 9:17 AM I've thought about an electric lean for my Harley/TLE rig but every time I think about it, I just go for a ride instead. This rig is the third one I've owned and apparently all of the tolerances flowed together in some magic combination. It's smooth steering and seems to be less bothered by changes in road crown than the prior ones. In other words, "if it ain't broke, why fix it". LOL. If you purchase a rig from some other manufacturer where the electric lean is an option, then by all means, get one. It would be a nice thing to have. On the other hand, it's not something that you necessarily need to engineer since the benefits are slight for the amount of effort necessary. There are too many other things on my list to worry about something that requires that much input. JMHO. YMMV.
I felt the same way, until I bought a sidecar with it installed. I'll never have another without. I normally ride with an empty car. I set the rig up accordingly and don't need to carry any excess ballast. When I do carry a passenger, especially with this little 1100cc Guzzi, I really feel the difference if I don't compensate. As it is, I raise the lean an inch and everything balances out. When the passenger or cargo is removed, I lower an inch and I'm good to go.
Now the brake, on the other hand, is another story. I thought it would be a nice thing to have with a lightweight motorcycle. I was wrong. The few times I have tried to apply it, even gently, it wants to throw the whole rig into the right ditch. I have relocated the pedal to where it is now ineffective. I wouldn't pay ten cents extra to have a brake on my next one. If it's there, fine. If it's not, better.
Different strokes for different folks. LOL
I need a brake on all three wheels of my 1,100 poind Harley rig, I can live without the electric lean.
Happy Trails.
gnm109 - 12/14/2009 11:35 AM Different strokes for different folks. LOL I need a brake on all three wheels of my 1,100 poind Harley rig, I can live without the electric lean. Happy Trails.
If your brakes are no better than my RoadKing's were, I can certainly understand your feelings. 🙂
Since I opt to use my gearbox more and don't depend entirely on my brakes for decelleration I've had no complaints with any of my Electra-Glide combos brakes (Including my '50 FL Pan/URAL with disc brakes but no sidecar brake).
I do use both brakes for final stopping though, or all three if so equipped.
Lonnie
Hack'n - 12/14/2009 1:48 PM Since I opt to use my gearbox more and don't depend entirely on my brakes for decelleration I've had no complaints with any of my Electra-Glide combos brakes (Including my '50 FL Pan/URAL with disc brakes but no sidecar brake). I do use both brakes for final stopping though, or all three if so equipped. Lonnie
I never thought the brakes were bad until I test rode a Valkyrie and nearly went over the handlebars stopping. 😉
SidecarMike - 12/14/2009 10:45 AM
gnm109 - 12/14/2009 11:35 AM Different strokes for different folks. LOL I need a brake on all three wheels of my 1,100 poind Harley rig, I can live without the electric lean. Happy Trails.
If your brakes are no better than my RoadKing's were, I can certainly understand your feelings. 🙂
Perhaps you had bad or aftermarket pads. The brakes on my Ultra will throw you over the bars...well almost, LOL. they do work well, though.
Hack'n - 11/22/2009 11:30 PM
The Harley sidecar has a rigid mounted frame with no suspension. Only the boat is sprung.
Electric lean systems require a swing-arm or torsional suspension.Lonnie
I think some confusion can come from this discussion related to some basic terminology. Lean out is the amount of lean the top of th ebike bike has away from the sidecar. There has been vaious lean out adjutors come down the pike over the last 20 to 25 years or so. The Vetter Terraplane had a manual lean adjutor on it that was pretty effective when used. It was a turnbuckle setup and also the upper sidecar mount. This was a three point mounting system. In time Vern Goodwin and others began to experiment with electical devices that coudl do the same thing with the push of a button. Satelite dish actuators were tried among other things. In essence it all came down to using a linear actuator which became the sole upper mount for the sidecar mounting system. The two lower mounts were typically heim ends to allow them to pivot easily. Once an actuator of sufficient size and speed was found these systems became more common. These were true lean adjustors. They were not without issues and concerns though. Many began to use them to get through the twisties quite fast. Lean th ebike left in a left turn and right in a right turn and yee haa the thing would really scoot. However in the wrong hands they could make things alittl ehairly. Also, any electical failure at the wrong time was a real concern.
Today this type of systme has fallen from favor probably due to safety concerns. I do nto think any manufacturer is offereng a true lean adjustor such as this anywhere today.
Today many manufacturers offer what I like to call a tilt adjustor. This is NOT a true lean out adjustor but rather amans to raise and lower the sidecar suspension electically. It still uses a linear actuator. Today these systems are popular but are not true lean adjustors. Each company seems as though they have come up with their own trick label for them but in reality they all do basically the same thing , i.e. tilt the whole outfit. They are actually meant to provide a means to compensate for road crown, loads in the sidecar and other things that affect handling overall. They do work very well and are a safe addition to almost abny sidecar outfit.
Some rigs do respond better to them than others. Some rigs that have a stiffer suspension and are balned well do okay as they are. Rigs that have a good anti-swaybar do very well with out them because th eswayabr oitself compemnsates for many variables in and of itself.
Like many things the addtion of a tilt adjustor is one way to sqeeze th ecompromises we are all up against a little tighter to our favor.
On a Harley sidecar outfit or an outfit that has a rigid suspension on the bike or sidecar there must be other ways to address the concern as a tilt adjustor simply has no suspension to work with. A means to raise and lower the rear suspenion of th ebike on a harley may be worth experimenting with. Not sure if a strong enough suystem could be designed to raise and lower the rigid siadecar 'suspenion' or lack thereof.
It's certainly true that there is no suspension on the Harley sidecar frame. There are advantages to the Harley design, however. It has a nice setup on the wheel close to the rear axle line with not too much lead, which I prefer. It's wide and thus has a nice long momemt arm due to its width, which minimizes left to right rocking and jarring on bumps.
It does, however, have suspension on the body of the sidecar. Some complain about how the sidecar does a roller coaster effect on bumps but one simple change can dampen that. Adding a shock or a friction damper works very well. My tub rides nice and flat with a friction damper. I've used shocks in the past and they also work, but I recently built a friction damper which is adjustable and really does a nice job.
Claude is correct in that that true electric lean units are not built anymore. I can get by without one anyway. I like the stability in corners offered by the solid frame on the Harley. I learned to handle a sidecar on a Harley with a commercial box many years ago and I'm happy the way they are. No reason to change now. If I bought a different brand I'd probably get one with a suspension but I won't be doing that.
Here are pictures of my friction damper added to my TLE sidecar. It helps to stabilize the tub and therefore, the entire rig is more solid on bumps and in rough corners. I made it from 1/4" and 1/8" plate with leather fricton washers. It adjusts with the center bolt and locknut. These are popular with hot rodders and are often found on eBay and from Hot Rod Shops. They are a true 50-50 shock. You can hardly find a true 50-50 hydraulic shock anymore. Mornoe and other similar companies have gone to gas-assisted shocks which tend to push the sidecar nose up and are too stiff.
This dampener plus the 50 pound weight near the sidecar wheel really helps to keep things under control.
By the way, the friction damper isn't patented as far as I know. If you want to copy this design and make one for yourself, knock yourselves out! LOL.
Enjoy.
Here's the damper:
And the weight:
By the way, the friction damper isn't patented as far as I know.
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Look on the early Fords and Chev's, maybe if you called it a damping modulator they will leave you alone 🙂
Shadow1100T - 12/14/2009 4:38 PM
By the way, the friction damper isn't patented as far as I know.
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Look on the early Fords and Chev's, maybe if you called it a damping modulator they will leave you alone 🙂
I don't interact with owners of early Fords and Chevy's. They haven't bothered me yet, either. For the record, I've been working on automobiles for many years and have yet to hear the term damping modulator. It's a nice term, though. 🙂
By the way 🙂 I think we're correct that the friction damper isn't patented, anymore, at least. LOL.
gnm109 - 12/14/2009 3:08 PM
SidecarMike - 12/14/2009 10:45 AM
gnm109 - 12/14/2009 11:35 AM Different strokes for different folks. LOL I need a brake on all three wheels of my 1,100 poind Harley rig, I can live without the electric lean. Happy Trails.
If your brakes are no better than my RoadKing's were, I can certainly understand your feelings. 🙂
Perhaps you had bad or aftermarket pads. The brakes on my Ultra will throw you over the bars...well almost, LOL. they do work well, though.
No aftermarket. I bought it new and sold it 14 months later with less than 12k miles.
do you have additional pic's looks nice a great setup, thanks
That's all the pictures I have. The discs are 3" diameter cut from 1/4" steel plate on my lathe. The arm is 14" long and is 1/8" steel. There are two 3" diameter thick leather discs for friction. You could also use sheet plastic as long as there is no oil on it. Then there is a 7-16" bolt that goes through to hold it together and increase tension if the pads wear. I haven't had to adjust it yet and it's been on there for two years now.
The U-bolts on the front cross bar hold the base of the unit which it welded to the base. They are 5/16" X 1-1/4" ID and simply bolt to the crossbar ahead of the frame.
The front of the arm is connected to the tub with a small heim joint and a pair of rubber shock absorber rubber ends. In operation, it keeps the nose of the sidecar flat all of the time with no rocking motion.
