Using the SC brake in a right turn

Really shouldnt be a problem, I to have used it the same way for years.You really are not using it any longer than the bike brakes for a normal stop at speed.

Right turns?
Which side is your sidecar on?

Originally written by Hack'n on 9/6/2006 3:01 PM

Right turns?
Which side is your sidecar on?

SC is on the right. On both my rigs I notice that right turns can be a minor issue when going down hill in the twisties.Particularly if going fast.

I had read that using the SC brake was a method to slow the SC down to permit easier cornering, which it clearly does. My question, although perhaps poorly phrased, had to do with technique.

For right turns I prefer to slow before the turn and accelerate out of it. If brakes are needed to slow down before the turn, both bike brakes are more effective for this job. Once in the turn the sidecar brake may have little or no traction. If the car lifts then drops with a locked wheel it can cause a loss of control.
The trick of using the front brake and throttle to raise the front of the bike to keep the hack down is something that should be practiced on a closed circuit before ever trying it on the road. At best it has it's limitations just like drifting does.
The safest way is to enter the turn at a lower speed then one can accelerate out after reaching the apex and resume your travelling speed.
Left turns can also be an issue going downhill in the twisties. One can pitchpole as mariners call it.

Lonnie

You should read the "sidecar book" that is on this site. It has all the info you could ever need.

Now for my opinion:

Take a sidecar safety class if you can. It will sharpen even the most experienced rider. If you learn one thing it will be worth it, plus you'll meet some nice people.

You can do what is call "drifting" in a right hand turn. When you enter the turn you apply the FRONT brake ONLY which compresses the front suspension and takes the load off the rear wheel ,apply THROTLE, and this will cause it to "drift" or slip and cause the bike to turn sharper. The geometry of the bike changes with this method and "points" the rear end into the curve. (Perhaps someone can explain this better than I did, and I know it's in the "book" but you need to find it for yourself).

My opinion: the main thing you are doing with the rear brake is slowing the bike down, which should always be your first choice when turning. "Drifting" the tail is a advanced technique that you should only use in "high performance manuevers", not for every turn. If you can't make right's comfortabley you should either shift your weight towards the sidecar or consider it a set up problem.

I'm not an expert but drifting does work. Try it in a parking lot before you hit the street.

Good Luck!

Originally written by Dundertaker on 9/8/2006 8:58 AM

You can do what is call "drifting" in a right hand turn. When you enter the turn you apply the FRONT brake ONLY which compresses the front suspension and takes the load off the rear wheel and will cause it to "drift" or slip and cause the bike to turn sharper. The geometry of the bike changes with this method and "points" the rear end into the curve. (Perhaps someone can explain this better than I did, and I know it's in the "book" but you need to find it for yourself).

My opinion: the main thing you are doing with the rear brake is slowing the bike down, which should always be your first choice when turning. "Drifting" the tail is a advanced technique that you should only use in "high performance manuevers", not for every turn. If you can't make right's comfortabley you should either shift your weight towards the sidecar or consider it a set up problem.

Boy, my rigs seem to handle quite differntly. When I apply the front brake only, the rig wants to turn left (i.e. the side car swings forward a bit, causing the bike to turn left a little). I use the technnique you describe to turn left.

I actually depend more on the front brake for real stopping power, the rear will lock up pretty easy since when slowing the weight shifts forward.

I do shift my weight when turning, but I think of that more to keep the SC down, not as a way to get the rig to turn more easily.

Good Luck!

Some good food for thought has been given here for some things that should or could be practiced. Sidecar operation is a mixed bag of tricks and each rig is a little different. The principles may be the same but the 'in practice' part will vary from rig to rig.
Braking with just the sidecar brake or even on a rig with integrated brakes to the sidecar can help when entering a right hander if the brake bias is set so the sidecar brake pulls to the right slightly. It is not a bad technique for entering a turn. Key word is 'entering'. As speed increases in the turn the effectiveness of using the sidecar brake will diminish as the sidecar gets light. (Read lonnie's post which alludes to the rig possibly becoming unstable if a sidecar wheel is locked and in the air).
Anyhow braking into a turn does work. Entering a turn by setting a late apex is best. This way one can see farther through the turn before comitting to an entry speed. Once in the turn the technique of feathering the front brake while accerating is very effective in keeping the sidecar more planted on the road. Even if the sidecar rises it is still a positive technique to learn. What it does is increase the usefull slip angle of the rear tire. Some tires act differently than others. Slip angle in a nutshell refers to the difference in direction that the tire 's contact patch is facing compare to the direction of motion of the rig. In simplier terms the tire will 'squirm' within itself. When taken to the extreme on a rig with sufficient power rear tire traction can be purposely broken and a true drifting through the turn will take place. This is a technique that really is not for the street but it does work. It is also a technique that can get you in a lot of trouble if the tire 'hooks up' at the wrong time. There is a comitmetn to the throttle on the part of the sidecarist that must be based on experience and knowing his machine. Backing off at the wrong time may hook up the rear tire and then it is all downhill very quickly.
One way to begin to corner more speedily in right handers is to be sure that the entry speed is within the limits of your rig and your skill level. At a point in the turn where you feel thsi is all okay you can accelerate as hard as you dare and the rig will still be under your control by using braking with throttle or even with easing off on the throttle as necessary. It is very important to understand this in that it is when one enters a turn too hot that the trouble begins. Getting in slower will prevent you from having to gather up a rig that is basically out of total control.
Be sure to understand that turns are not consistant. Some have a decreasing radius and some may have a camber change at the wrong time. Either of these issues can make 'pucker time' come upon you real quick!
These techniques being discussed are really more advanced ways to corner but can be practiced and learned if anyone is willimng to take the time to do it gradually and safley. With that being said we should also mention again that true drifitng, with the rear tire broken loose, in right handers has no place on the street.
All of the above will only be related to a rig that is well balanced by whatever means. Hanging off the seat will inhance your comfort in doing these things and also move a little bit a live ballast over to the sidecar side. Hanging off is NOT the cure all though as you can still get into trouble and maybe at a slightly higher cornering speeed.
It always sounds strange to a newbie when one of us says we can corner in right handers better than elfties but with many rigs it is true. It all comes down to technique, a well balance rig and experience.
Note that all disclamers apply here. If you get on your head and end up in the crash house is was not my fault 🙂

I have amended my reply:

I forgot to ad: apply throttle with the front brake, this is what causes the rear tire to "drift"