I have been watching this forum as a guest for several years, it had a significant influence on my decision to add a car however I am on the fence whether to spend more money on the rig or head another route. With that here is the issue.
I have a 2006 HD Ultra with a 2007 Motorvation Formula II Ltd. sidecar which was installed by the crew at Motorvation Engineering. We have one grandson living with us full time (40lbs) and a second who loves to ride when visiting (40lbs also) I also have an 80lb ballast in the car. The wife feels to vulnerable in the car so prefers to continue to ride as a passenger on the bike, so with passenger and luggage the bike sees 400lbs plus of load.
From what I understand from Motorvation the unit was setup with maybe a 240lb rider and empty car. The best way for me to describe my issue is on a freeway condition, if we run in the right hand lane I am constantly fighting the rig, it doesn't matter how I trim the car it constantly pulls right, so much so that my weak shoulders are done for after about 150 miles. If I pull into the left hand lane the rig runs much more neutral and is what I would consider as it should be running down the road. That tells me the crown of the road is off setting the pull of the rig. I am hesitant to modify the triple tree for fear I am going to cover up what may be a mis-adjusted rig.
If I'm gathering my information correctly it sounds like I should be checking my set-up with 400lbs on the bike and not empty? Any advise on how to go about tackling the issue will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Fred
Originally written by stsfred on 10/1/2008 11:43 AM
I have been watching this forum as a guest for several years, it had a significant influence on my decision to add a car however I am on the fence whether to spend more money on the rig or head another route. With that here is the issue.
If I'm gathering my information correctly it sounds like I should be checking my set-up with 400lbs on the bike and not empty? Any advise on how to go about tackling the issue will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Fred
Correct. You want to set things up as close as possible to the way it will go down the road. If you never leave home without the wife on the pillion then you must balance the rig accordingly and set your lean and tow the same.
I met a gent a few months ago who does it a little different. He loaded up the rig as it would go on the road, then measured it from various points, (Handgrips to the ground, top shock bolts, sidecar frame, etc.). He then pulls it up on a trailer and ties it down, compressing everything until he gets those same measurements. I've never tried that, but he swears it works great and once the dimensions were recorded he can always duplicate them without a helper and without loading everything down.
How critical does the weight on the bike really play into all of this? If the passenger is 1/3 of the weight equation and I decide to ride solo? This is where the power lean on the car should play a roll I would think. Where in its stroke would you suggest the electric lean be set when you set the car up? Also you mention checking the tow in while loaded, technically that shouldn't change with load should it?
If you and your wife weighed exactly the same and you never moved the rig unless she was seated in the car, then the weight may not matter. I set up my Valkyrie for my weight and an empty chair and my daughter, who weighs 120 lb. less than me, had trouble driving it. Add me to the sidecar and she couldn't keep it on the road.
Likewise, if I rode her rig with an empty car, I couldn't keep the sidecar on the ground. It literally flew every time I passed a car and tried to return to my lane.
My Valkyrie didn't have electric lean and I usually rode with an empty sidecar. If we went somewhere with my wife in the car I would fight the right hand pull for the whole trip.
Now I have the same sidecar you have. I set mine up with my weight on the bike, and the ram extended about 3/4. That gives me some adjustment for road crown, but lots of adjustment for added weight in the sidecar.
Although the toe should not be affected with the Motorvation electric lean, I've always considered each adjustment to be dependent on each other. If the top struts aren't perfectly parallel to one another, adjusting the front one 1 turn and the back one 1 turn would correct for a right hand pull but could also change the toe.
So I got the whole family involved in some measuring, with the wife and I on the bike I've got exactly 1 degree of lean out on the bike with the elect lean extended about 3/4 of the way (which is where I was running it). The car is also level at that point. There is no significant change with or without the addition of the wife or just myself on the bike, so obviously the suspension on the bike is not impacted by a 30 percent increase in weight. The tow measurement is exactly "0" center line of rear wheel to center line of front wheel
Fred
So, if you ride solo or with your passenger on the back, the rig still pulls right the same amount? Changing the electric lean doesn't affect it? I've never run with 0" toe. I usually start at 3/4", then adjust according to how it handles. I don't know if that would make a difference. Perhaps one of the installers will chime in here.
Add some toe in and recheck lean out...test..re-adjust lean out if needed.
I will get at the tow in adjustment on Saturday, the set-up instructions suggest 3/4" tow-in also that seems to be the standard. I can see if that existed the electric lean control should have more influence on the degree of handling change it translates to the set-up. I notice the front tire is scuffy like crazy and I just haven't put a huge amount of miles on the rig.
Thanks
Fred
I think you are running when underway with some toe out.
Claude,
After measuring the set-up last night and thinking about the last 300 mile trip we took, I would agree with your statement that it may be running in a tow out condition while underway. We were bucking a head wind on the first leg of the trip and it was unbearable to control, on the return leg the wind was at our back or side most of the way and handling would improve slightly. This would support your theory of a tow out condition existing while under way.
I appreciate the advice.
Fred
Sidecarmike,
If I may ask how do you approach the tow in setting on your motorvation car. It would seem to me very little movement will impact that measurement quite a bit. I'm inclined to go after the forward mounts, my wife would tell you that I'm an engineer and I spend way to much time analyzing things so I will get to the end result, I guess it just takes longer.
Thanks
Fred
Originally written by stsfred on 10/2/2008 10:14 AM
Claude,
After measuring the set-up last night and thinking about the last 300 mile trip we took, I would agree with your statement that it may be running in a tow out condition while underway. We were bucking a head wind on the first leg of the trip and it was unbearable to control, on the return leg the wind was at our back or side most of the way and handling would improve slightly. This would support your theory of a tow out condition existing while under way.
I appreciate the advice.
Fred
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Just guessing of course. Check it out and see. Note that if there is no toe in at rest it can translate into toe out when underway. A little toe in is really needed to keep the rig happy. Too much and tire wear will increase. 3/4" or less toe in shoudl be a good starting point measured in front of the front tire and behind the rear tire.
Decided to dig into the the set-up on the tow in tonight instead of waiting, I ended up around 11/16 tow-in and about 1 deg. of lean out for starters. I just got back from a 15 mile test on two lane county, interstate pavement and 4 lane state road, riding solo and 80lbs of ballast in the car. My first impression is wow, I am able to bring it up to 65-70 mph and back off to a 65+ mph cruise and have the handling be as close to neutral as I have ever felt the rig. I am looking forward to a longer ride over some familiar terrain so I can fully gauge the impact of the changes.
Thanks again for the pointers.
Fred
Originally written by stsfred on 10/2/2008 11:25 PM
Decided to dig into the the set-up on the tow in tonight instead of waiting, I ended up around 11/16 tow-in and about 1 deg. of lean out for starters. I just got back from a 15 mile test on two lane county, interstate pavement and 4 lane state road, riding solo and 80lbs of ballast in the car. My first impression is wow, I am able to bring it up to 65-70 mph and back off to a 65+ mph cruise and have the handling be as close to neutral as I have ever felt the rig. I am looking forward to a longer ride over some familiar terrain so I can fully gauge the impact of the changes.
Thanks again for the pointers.
Fred
Good news, sound like you are making progress. You may want to mark your connections somehow just so you can see if anything ever slips.
Thanks again for the advice, I did document some frame to frame reference measurements before I started moving things, made the adjustments and documented where it is now. I have some tape wrapped and marked on the struts so I can take a quick measurement while test riding if I decide to go after any of the adjustments. Right now my gut tells me it will be the fixed lean-out if anything that I might tweak, otherwise as it is right now it seems that the electric lean on the car should take care of things.
Is there conventional wisdom from those of you who do this for a living regarding where is the most affective place to adjust the lean out? Although the lean adjustment using the torsion axle position seems simple, it also changes the ability of the car tire to remain flat to the road, my mind says keeping the car level and adjust the bike lean to be correct under the normal driving conditions and only adjust the axle position to compensate for a much larger load in the car thus re-leveling the car. At this point I tend to see an advantage to a rigid frame and axle with a suspended tub.
Fred
