Yeah,
We have lots of those one laners and wagon tracks around here too. Lots of BLM land close at hand.
I was going down a section line road last week and it turned into gravel, then dirt, through a farmers fields, then two tire tracks that dropped over a hill. It had a hump in it but I could see tracks at the bottom so I headed down. When I got to the bottom I saw the tracks were on the opposite of a barbed wire fence in a pipeline right of way and I was on a cart path in a golf course. After following some surprised golfers in their golf carts for a while I asked them if I could play through and the cart path ended up on a powerline maintenance right of way so followed it till I was able to get back on county roads.
It was quite fun for me but the golfers were sure wondering what a sidehack rig was doing following them around the course.
Lonnie
When exploring back roads keep in mind that some may require you to turn around at some point. I sincerly love this type of exploring but a dead end can sure create a lot of work if it ends up into a pushing and pulling situation to get a heavy rig going back in the direction you came from. Also going down hill may be easy but if you have to come back the way you came comng back up that same hill on a gravel or muddy road can be 'interesting' sometimes.
Above all have fun thta's what it's all about 🙂
Wayne,
take it calm, there is no need to hurry....
with only one year riding a sidecar you are still a "youngster" and it will take its time until you got the felling in the blood or better said in your guds. At your age don't worry about your son's comments. Its more important to get home healthy and play with the grandchildren.
What you may do is start to lower the ballast by 15 pounds each time you get riding until 20-30 pounds. (I allways keep my tools and spares in the sidecar that add up to some 15 pounds) Look for a "BIG 'n EMPTY parking lot" close to home. And there when you leave and when you come back, make a lot of left - and right hand circles and eights. Start slowly and keep spinning up. You still can straighten out.
Soon you will notice that a too fast driven left curve is much more dangerous than the commonly feared right bend.
And STAY WITH IT: GO DOWN WITH SPEED BEFORE THE BEND; If you entered too slow you still may pull the throttle. ... If you felt too secure and entered too fast .... Good bye You'll go straight or flip ... and hopefully its not in the mountains or into the upcomeing transit.
I just may say that on my first drive with my first own sidecar (Friday or saturday 13.december 1986) on 140km I went 3 times straight into the pasture... and i'm not ashamed about it, but I had young bones that would have healed fast.
Your's won't weld well, so take it calm.
And most of all be aware when you start to feel comfortable, that is the most dangerous moment. Then there comes a sudden surprise and you will act again as a solo rider.
You read allready the translation of the german manual here in the asociation? The original is my companion for 21 years now. (I hope to find a spanish translation of it, somebody has a link?)
Whith a sidecar you may become very old and enjoy with the grandchildren...
A friend back in Germany drove until the last moment, The last Time I wanted to visit him his sister said that he was on his way to their eldest brother in the "Black mountains" 800km south. Paul was 87 years then and possibly made it still in one day.
Best of all luck.
Sven Peter
or Peter Pan from Costa Rica
with a tiny Jawa 350 that is good for a lot of fun on the mountain gravel roads.
10º North,84º West
Yep, my husband, who rides two wheels, used to give me *a hard time* about going too slow in corners. Then he rode my rig. Now he says "you're doing fine." (I shoulda let him ride it a long time ago! Would have spared me many a lecture!) : >
And everyone is right about seeing things you wouldn't if you were going faster. I often see stuff, pull over to further inspect, all the while thinking "wouldn't it be cool if (insert name of whoever you're riding with) had seen this?
And, I have a question for you veterans- Peter Pan touched on Left Hand curves. As I progress in riding skills, I have found I am much more comfortable in Right Hand curves, but "feel" the Left Handers more than I used to notice feeling. I think part of it has to do with the fact that I was so worried/obsessed about the notorious Right Handers, maybe the Lefters just didn't "register" as much attention? Do you guys think this is a "normal" progression, or am I regressing, as it were, and just finding something else to worry about? It seems to me that both are potentially dangerous, don't get me wrong. However, it seems to me that Rights are something I can control, or react to more easily with positive results, much more so than Lefters. Maybe not- but it seems that, being a short lady (not small, but not a 230lb man!) I don't see myself shifting weight back over a rear tire that wants to lift AND being able to still steer/use controls, etc if that were to happen. Maybe it's not so much about weight, but more that there's only so far back you can sit on the rig when you are 5'4". Let me clarify that of course I lean left with Lefters. I am a firm believer that practice makes permanent, not perfect. So I lean left/right always. I am probably giving more to the drama of this than merits, just following it through to a worst case scenario.
Any thoughts on this?
Have fun!
Hello Kural,
first: one of Harz-mountains fastest sidecar pushers is (was?) a tiny small lady of 1.60m and less then 55kg (to the time I met her the last time on her 1000er Guzzi with a HUGE Jewell (Fr) 2 seater. I didn't even toutch her sister in law's shoulder who was well feeded. The rig was 1,95m wide) It is in the feeling. As a small person the center of gravity is way lower then with a big person. Together with your heavy bike and side car you don't need to monkey as much as me with 80kg on my tiny small Jawa and a feather light Velorex side car.
Second: The danger of the left hander is not in coming up, but flipping over because the sidecar nose may catch the ground.
1/2 situations: heavy passenger and a harsh 90º left bend. Because of the far back sidecar wheel the hole bike's back and you will be thrown over to the right. If your side car nose gets caught by a big stone (01.01.2007, story of its own like "travel happy as a cow" ) or Summer 1987 the passenger has the full right never again to take a seat beside you.
After that I mounted a PE-slipping patch in the MZ-sidecar touch down corner. It became much better to start to slide than to flip.
2/2 situation. Last summer I robbed a left crossing too fast and in the corner behind a waiting car appeared a deep ditch right in the side cars wheel track. I had to grip the brake hard. The hole transit stopped breath when the back came up And I was about to fly...
And didn't .... smooth and soft dosing of the break tipped me down safe as a bed cusion right beside the hole.
With my first Jolly Roger for sure I would have seen the hospital...
Since then I am more convinced then ever. Back wheel and side car wheel MUST have the same type of break system.=> Back wheel hydraulic => sidecar Hydraulic ... Back wheel mecanical=> side car mecanical and adjusted with the same gib!.
I remember bad things with the MZ (JR1)(back mecanical / side car hydraulic)
This Jawa (JR2) is allthough very small and overheating engine, a pretty harmonically designed assembley with good breakes you can dose well.
In resumee, no you aren't growing backward, You simply start to get to know your bike better and realize the real dangers.
...
God bless you and may you enjoy many many years of adventures that nobody ever will be able to live with other vehicles.
Regards from somebody who tries to convince his doctor that driveing a side car is much better for to become old and perhaps wise than medicine.
Sven "Peter Pan"
The 43 year old kid who never grew up.
Kural wrote:
>>>And, I have a question for you veterans- Peter Pan touched on Left Hand curves. As I progress in riding skills, I have found I am much more comfortable in Right Hand curves, but "feel" the Left Handers more than I used to notice feeling. I think part of it has to do with the fact that I was so worried/obsessed about the notorious Right Handers, maybe the Lefters just didn't "register" as much attention? Do you guys think this is a "normal" progression.....?....snip<<<<
Kural,
New sidecarists are typically intimidated by righ thanders and get pretty confident in lefties early on. As they get more familar with riding a sidecar rig they find they get a feel for right handers and gain confidence there too. As the learning curve progresses, depending on how far they wish to 'push their skills envelope', they find that they can read the right hand curves coming up and know how fast they can enter them without overdoing it. They learn they can accelrate under control through a right hander and be in control while not thinking much on whether the sidecar wheel is on the ground or not and they have reached another level of sidecar operation. Entering the turn correctly, seeing through the turn (taking a late apex)before throttling up and recognizing a decreasing radius or an oncoming off camber situation at some point become second nature.Dealing with the unexpected can even be far less than a disaster on a rig if one practices diligently and desire to expand their skill base.
At some point in this learning process the sidecarist begins to be more concenred with left turns that right turns.To those who are just getting the hang of sidecar operation that statement will see really foreign to them but it is true. Why is it true? You and you rrig only have 'x' amount of control in left handers. It doesn't matter if you have a Ural or a full tilt HPS rig this is almost always the case.
Right handers can bite a sidecarist but it is typically through inexperience. Left handers can bite and kill due to th elimitations of th emachine itself.
A left hander will unload the rear tire of the bike. This can result in a little bit of oversteer but ccan also bring th erear of the bike up and over the sidecar. It happens quickly and the only thing that will save you is what forces were acting on the rig to get it into that scenario to begin with....i.e. speed. Urals and high mounted rigs such as the dual sport outfits that are gaining in popularity can lift the rear pretty easily. Light rigs do the same. Haevy rigs based on large touring bakes are not as prone to do this.
The rear will come up quickly and the driver tends to get pitched forward and to the right which makes things worse. Think 'tip over lines'.
More sidecar wheel lead is benefical to stabilze the rig in left turns but it has it's drawbacks as well. More lead can allow the chair to rise easier in right handers, can enhance a wobble, can make steering harder and can also increase tire wear.
The high performance rigs many time run a ton of lead to help in lefties. They may not tend to tip as easily due to their wide and lower stance but will still tend to understeer(have the front end break traction) under hard cornering away from the sidecar.
Swaybars make a lot of diference in left hand cornering speeds. Even though more speed can be obtained with their use the dynamics working on the rig are still similar. In other words the rear can stil lift but it will do so at a higher rate of speed.
Same goes with body english or what soem call hanging off. Al that is is movoing some human ballast around. It helps but the dynamics are not changed.
Learning to control the rig in right hand turns is paramount to becoming a skilled sideecarist. Learning the safe limits of the rig while not getting overconfident in lefties will keep you alive.
Some will learn to excel and be proficicent and some will not desire to reach a level beyond a certain point. Those that have a stable well setup and balanced rig with reasonable power and desire to do s
PETER PAN,
Where did you get that name anyhow? Just kidding.
That last post I did was done before I saw yours.
Anyhow I have enjoyed your posts. It is interesting to hear from you. Post often my friend.
Hello Claude,
Peter Pan they gave me in the Bundeswehr makeing my national service some 24 years ago... You shouldn't tell your officer that he is an and isnt worth the woman he is going to marry... or doesn't know what he is doing...
But it seems still valid when you tell a general manager that "its high time for him to scratch his skull." > I lost 2,500$, he looses 1500-1700$ per day since november 2004...
I will continue telling stories about the good roads in Costa Rica.
next on this frequency will be the trip from 1.1.07 down to the Panamanian border...
And when I have some tips I pass them over too.
Regards from 10ºN, 84ºW
Peter Pan
Thank You Very Much Claude & Peter Pan-
Really appreciate your comments. All you said makes perfect sense to me about tipping lines, the dynamics of the rig, etc. I took Vernon's course last year, right after I got my rig, and that helped me a lot. I am a shameless advertiser for it, in fact!
Anyway, thanks for replying. What I am experiencing seems logical to me, in terms of the progression of my concerns/whatever you want to call it. But it's good to know that it is really the logical next step, if you will, in the riding skills. Sometimes I am a worry wort, so I just kind of wanted to make sure I wasn't being silly!
Thanks Again!
Karla
Thanks again, all of you. I've been watching out of the corner of my eye the fender on the Spyder which rotates around the wheel as the suspension changes. On left turns the suspension compresses quite a bit which means that I'm transferring the Valk's heavy weight to the sidecar on left turns. It doesn't take much imagination to know that when the sidecar's suspension is fully compressed the next step is the lightening of the Tug's rear suspension with the potential of a sudden high side. I, too, am becoming more aware of the dynamics in a left turn. I'm taking it very easy as I don't want to be the pebble in the slingshot! Lol.
This thread has been a great learning experience, thanks again, all
Wayne
This is a great thread....I too worried about right turns early on and "dove" into lefties before I understood the dangers. I met some Pittsburgh motorcycle cops who pilot rigs during the winter and one said: "Righties teach you physics the easy way....lefties the hard way"
This was posted at SCT today by an experienced sidecarist , Thomas McIntyre. I thought it would be appropriate to cross post it here in light of how this discussion had unfolded:
>> I did a dumb thing and want to share my experience to perhaps help others avoid
repeating my experience. I am a near 20 year sidecar driver, primary rig is an
R69/ Ural , a
conversion which has all the goodies (late 60s frame with xtra bracing, 15"
wheels, /5 final
drive, dual brembo discs, sidecar springs, koni shocks etc etc) I ride it a
great deal and
have a lot of miles on it in incrementally improved versions over the years. I
can of course
fly the chair, I can fly the chair and excecute a figure "8" with the chair up
(I recommend
learning this as it is good control practice - of course at low speed in an
open parking
lot!) I have been in the habit of using a bit of throttle to help tighten "U"
turns and tight
left turns at low speed - the rear tire slides a bit and the rig is going in the
direction I want
in a nonce. I usually ride with an empty chair or with a 20 kg passenger. I
recently had a
200kg passenger who wanted a demonstration of sidecar dynamics - and got one.
Flying
the chair after a right turn at low speed in the parking lot and demonstrating
the "worm"
effect on accel-decelleration went fine. The throttle assisted hard left did not
go as well.
The larger passenger reduced the ground clearance and increased the lean to the
right and
when I turned hard left and rolled on throttle the nose of the Ural met the
tarmac before
the rear Michelin broke traction. Sailors call the next manuever "pitchpoling."
The rig
pivoted over the sidecar nose and sent me up (and then gravity took me down - I
think it
looked like the Monty Python "peasant shooting" skit - PULL!) The outfit was
shiny side
down and a voice was heard - "Get this thing off of me!" I was able to lift the
chair and
push the outfit back over - up on the left valve cover and back on the wheels.
Bruises and
a broken helmet visor were the only damage to driver and passenger. A couple of
burly
bikers (actually a pair of slender motorcycle esthetes) were able to bend the
bars and bar
mounts almost straight, and I was able to ride 120 miles home. The spare tyre
mount on
the Ural is tweaked, as is the luggage rack on the /2, the mirrors are gone and
I will
replace the bars, mounts, and left side controls and get a dent in the Ural
fixed and
painted. I can not recall ever feeling as stupid as I did that day. Sitting here
recalling the
debacle I cringe.
so,
1) do not do what I did
2) a Ural sidecar is a sturdy thing
3) do not do what I did <<
I'm glad you weren't serously hurt.......I too can "fly the chair". I got all of that out of my system when I was younger, however. My position on flying the chair is (1) I don't do it. (2) I don't want to do it. (3) I don't see the need to do it.
The only time it might become an issue is in the event that you intentionally put yourself in a position where the wheel comes up. (fast right turn with idecar on the right.) Since I already know how to do it, I will await that situation and deal with it when it arises.
But "Wait!" you say...."You have to practice flying the chair all of the time, every chance you get!" No I don't. I already mentioned that I know how to do it.
I repeat...I'm sincerely glad that you weren't seriously hurt.
(I'm going to put on my flame suit now and lurk a while until the "Flying the Chair Advocacy Group" gets through with this issue.)
gnm109
This is a very interesting thread for a new sidecarist like myself. I have 52 years of two wheel riding experience and it sounds to me that "flying the wheel" is similar to eliminating the "chicken strips" on a sport tourer.
At 67, I'm really not interested in doing either - both manoeuvres seem to be at the edge of disaster. I'm content to just putt along and enjoy the scenery. Honk and I'll move over so you can pass.
Hello Friends,
the nasty thing about going to the edge of the possible driveing is that the material will not like it much...
The frames are made for normal driving,
The tires, spokes, wheels, brakes, ancour plates, front- back- side- fork of old stile off the shelf bikes, (MZ, Jawa, ....probably its valid for Dnepr, Ural and the chineese stuff too) are working abouve there security design level.
When you start to play hard they will ceed...
On the MZ I don't remember how often I needed to thraighten out by a lever and brute force the front fist of the side car frame, the sidecar fork and the back fork.
On the JAwa at only 13000 km I had allready 3 broken spokes the forth realignment, 2. Piston oversize and reweld the front nose protector frame,
just because of playing too much in very exiting terrains.
And hopefully you don't get a bad back As I have,
The bikes costs are handleable, but the medical cost is rising now too high up....wherefore, I slow down now and take it calmer,... at least in town.
...until the next faboulus mountain dirt track rises up...
when all logic evaporates again...
only flying is better, but take the 3 dimention seriously in acount
There is definetly no change to be more clever then Physical laws and abouves protection....
Best regards
Sven Peter Pan
