I am researching H-D sidecar history as a semester capstone project... (Yes...I have decided to return to college after 25 years...lol).
I know that H-D first offered sidecars in 1914.
I was able to locate Company minutes from 1914 and 1915 which state that H-D ordered sidecars (2500 and 5000 respectively) from the Rogers Company. The Rogers car is also known as the "Dutch Shoe". A documentary film I saw recently said that The Seaman Company first supplied sidecars to Harley-Davidson.
Does anyone know if both companies supplied sidecars at the same time? or....did Rogers build the passenger cars and Seaman build the commercial line of package trucks and Vans?
Thanks in advance.
Originally written by ditch on 2/16/2008 7:55 PM
I am researching H-D sidecar history as a semester capstone project... (Yes...I have decided to return to college after 25 years...lol).
I know that H-D first offered sidecars in 1914.
I was able to locate Company minutes from 1914 and 1915 which state that H-D ordered sidecars (2500 and 5000 respectively) from the Rogers Company. The Rogers car is also known as the "Dutch Shoe". A documentary film I saw recently said that The Seaman Company first supplied sidecars to Harley-Davidson.
Does anyone know if both companies supplied sidecars at the same time? or....did Rogers build the passenger cars and Seaman build the commercial line of package trucks and Vans?
Thanks in advance.
You probably already have thought of this...but why not write to the Harley-Davidson Historian? He would likely have that information. Your question is fairly esoteric since it's about something that was going on more tham 90 years ago.
By the way, that term "Dutch Shoe" is apparently not limited to Harley-Davidson sidecars built only in the teens. Some say it was used later than that. Apparently it is a bone of contention with some folks. In any case I'm sure that you realize that it was a nickname and not a standard Harley model designation.
Dr. Jack Rosenblum...I have considered contacting him if I can't find it out on my own.....I'm thinking I may wait until I have more questions.
One interesting point on the "Dutch Shoe" car....H-D really pressured Rogers to build/sell sidecars exclusively to H-D. Rogers refused and built/sold cars to Ace and Excelsior. Finally H-D pushed a little too hard in 1924, and later in 1924 Rogers told em to stuff it, refused to supply Harley with anymore cars....so Harley was forced to begin building they're own cars in 1925.
GNM....yes it's actual designation was LC or LCL for left hand mounts. I was surprised to discover that in 1916 H-D offered no fewer than 16 sidecar models.
The commercial sidecars contributed greatly to the modern movement, and were instrumental in expanding the economy...sadly they are seen as merely a footnote today.
Ditch wrote:
>>The commercial sidecars contributed greatly to the modern movement, and were instrumental in expanding the economy...sadly they are seen as merely a footnote today.<<
Ditch,
I think the advent of the Model T ford had a huge inpact on many sidecars and motrocycles thta were being produced at the time.
Very interesting.You have already uncoved much info that I sure wasn't familar with.Keep it coming!
You might want to contact Merle Wolfe in Duncannon, Pa. He has done alot of research also and produces replicas of Harley sidecars.
Click here:
http://www.l-wbody.com/
When you make you way out here to Penns Creek, Ditch, maybe we'll take a run down and visit Merle. He is quite a character. About 50 miles away.
Also, I have at a coupel of differtent seminars heard that Harley is only producing sidecars today due to a long term contract they had with the police or someting like that. Would be curious if that can be documented.
Sure would be great if you can get some pics during your research. Would make a great article for Hack'd or The Sidecarist.
Attached are some pics of Merle's work and a Dutch Shoe collector card from Ebay.
Originally written by ditch on 2/17/2008 12:57 AM
GNM....yes it's actual designation was LC or LCL for left hand mounts. I was surprised to discover that in 1916 H-D offered no fewer than 16 sidecar models.
The commercial sidecars contributed greatly to the modern movement, and were instrumental in expanding the economy...sadly they are seen as merely a footnote today.
Jack Rosenblum is no longer with Harley-Davidson. He left and someone else is in that position.
Claude mentions that Harley only builds sidecars out of deference to the police. An interesting theory but rather doubtful since they do in fact still advertise and build two models in various colors matched to civilian bikes. See the links below.
It sounds like you are doing some interesting research. Maybe you have unearthed some information on the Goulding Sidecar Company and the inimitable Dot Robinson. I rode the 1956 Jack Pine Run on my 1954 Ariel 500cc single when she was on her HD Knucklehead with a Goulding sidecar. She often won that run in the sidecar class.
gnm wrote:
Claude mentions that Harley only builds sidecars out of deference to the police. An interesting theory but rather doubtful since they do in fact still advertise and build two models in various colors matched to civilian bikes.
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Just to clear the air I wrote:
>>Also, I have, at a couple of differtent seminars, heard that Harley is only producing sidecars today due to a long term contract they had with the police or someting like that. Would be curious if that can be documented.<<
It ain't me that's saying it is is me that is wondering what the facts are 🙂
This assignment actually started out as a simple paper....and it has evolved into a major research project and the subject of my semester capstone....
Anyway....the commercial sidecars: the package vans and trucks, allowed the "Average Joe" with a bit of entrepreneurial spirit, to expand his business exponentially, at a fraction of the cost of a Ford.....and have a lot more fun doing it. Also, gasoline for the most part had to be purchased at hardware stores, and it was expensive relatively speaking, so gas mileage and operating costs were as important then as they are today.
To understand the impact and popularity of the sidecar; in 1919 Harley-Davidson produced 23,279 motorcycles, 16,095 of those were combinations, nearly 70%.
Goulding was a huge player in the sidecar business, supplying the solo cars to H-D beginning in 1929. Abresh actually held the contract and built the commercial bodies and thus acted as middleman between Goulding and Harley-Davidson. Abresh is most famous for building the Servi-Car bodies as well.
H-D again began building they're own sidecars in 1967 (after purchasing a controlling interest in Tomahawk Boat Works in 1962). 1967 saw the debut of the fiberglass body and the Tomahawk facility continues to produce H-D sidecars as well as most of the other plastic and fiberglass parts.
Originally written by ditch on 2/17/2008 12:35 PM
This assignment actually started out as a simple paper....and it has evolved into a major research project and the subject of my semester capstone....
Anyway....the commercial sidecars: the package vans and trucks, allowed the "Average Joe" with a bit of entrepreneurial spirit, to expand his business exponentially, at a fraction of the cost of a Ford.....and have a lot more fun doing it. Also, gasoline for the most part had to be purchased at hardware stores, and it was expensive relatively speaking, so gas mileage and operating costs were as important then as they are today.
To understand the impact and popularity of the sidecar; in 1919 Harley-Davidson produced 23,279 motorcycles, 16,095 of those were combinations, nearly 70%.
Goulding was a huge player in the sidecar business, supplying the solo cars to H-D beginning in 1929. Abresh actually held the contract and built the commercial bodies and thus acted as middleman between Goulding and Harley-Davidson. Abresh is most famous for building the Servi-Car bodies as well.
H-D again began building they're own sidecars in 1967 (after purchasing a controlling interest in Tomahawk Boat Works in 1962). 1967 saw the debut of the fiberglass body and the Tomahawk facility continues to produce H-D sidecars as well as most of the other plastic and fiberglass parts.
Dot Robinson, 1912-1999 was married to Earl Goulding, the sidecar man in 1931. That may have influenced her choice of sidecar for her travels and competition. LOL There is a very nice article on her in the AMA Motoircycle Hall of Fame colleciton at this link.
http://motorcyclemuseum.org/halloffame/hofbiopage.asp?id=78
When I was a kid in Chicago, I rode several summers for an agency that delivered packages and blueprits in Chicago. We rode 1950's panheads that were fitted wih carburetor governors. The sidecars were Harley spec. with large commercial boxes fitted. The boxes were approximately 2' X 2' X 5'. The bikes were fairly slow but had monumental torque thanks to the panhead's 48 pound flwheels and the governors which were fitted inside the venturi of the carburetor. The bikes were typical HD with three and reverse.
Too bad you're not workng on the Indian and other sidecar manufacturers. Harley was certainly not the only one. In Chicago in the 1940's and later, there were still two separate police departments: The Chicago P.D. and the Chicago Park District P.D. The regular police used solo big twin EL's and FL's and also model G Servicars for traffic and parking. The Park District used Indians up to 1956 when Mayor Daley took over and consolidated both departments. Some of the Park District Indians were four cylinder bikes fitted with matching Indian sidecars and they were gorgeous!
Happy Trails!
GNM and Claude,
Thanks for the links, they are excellent resources. I will contact Merle as he is no doubt an authority. You are correct in stating that it is such an esoteric subject. Photographs can't be relied upon because 1920's models may very well be pulling cars from the teens era.
Again Thanks
Originally written by ditch on 2/18/2008 6:26 AM
GNM and Claude,
Thanks for the links, they are excellent resources. I will contact Merle as he is no doubt an authority. You are correct in stating that it is such an esoteric subject. Photographs can't be relied upon because 1920's models may very well be pulling cars from the teens era.
Again Thanks
I would certainly enjoy reading your project when it's done. It's an interesting part of motorcycling history in a period when sidecars were all the rage.
Ditch said:
H-D again began building they're own sidecars in 1967 (after purchasing a controlling interest in Tomahawk Boat Works in 1962). 1967 saw the debut of the fiberglass body and the Tomahawk facility continues to produce H-D sidecars as well as most of the other plastic and fiberglass parts.
Hi, just a thought. I really am not sure exactly when HD began building their own sidecars. Certainly you can date the advent of the fiberglass bodied models to the acquisition of the Tomahawk plant. I'm quite certain, however, that there are HD casting numbers with date suffixes on things like frames and footrests with dates much earlier than the 1960's. I've seen many of them.There are also parts number books from the 20's, 30's, 40's and 50's on eBay right now. These books are advertised as OEM. Comments?
Here are two on right now:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Harley-1952-1961-Panhead-Sidecar-61-74-Parts-Manual_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ34236QQihZ014QQitemZ330211685695QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW
