I live for your bon mots. That's pronounced bon moe. I think that's French for "good Moe". They thought Jerry Lewis was a genious, too.
Speaking of a similar wisdom;
A great guru was visiting New York and stopped to get a hot dog. He asked for one with the request, "Make me one with everything." The vendor piled his dog high and the guru gave him a $20 bill. When the vendor merely stuck the twenty in his pocket and turned to the next customer, the guru asked about his change. Without looking up, the vendor replied, "Change comes from within..."
If this is the technical dept, does anyone know what the thread count is on my Steib spin-off?
I have noticed that I have some difficulty when turning left after a stop.
Going into the long turn I feel I need to shift and a few times the act of clutch and pull on left hand has caused me to "lose it" for a second.
I have not had any incedents but Im always concerned. As far as fast turns to the right...hold on and (my rig) tends to jump a little. I thing the Legend hack has enough weight to not worry to much about flying the rig.
Steve
Steve: Not too surprizing. Take your rig into some nasty roads like deep gravel or soft sand or deep deep snow instead of the nice concrete and macadam and see the difference. You will find you will be really ploughing on a hard left, and in fact might not even make ANY directional change whatsoever - just ploughinging ahead with the bars turned to the left. Of course, this is just the extreme example. You get the idea. You have to PULL the rig around with you and it just do not want to go! No biggie. Just adjust to the idiosyncrisy.
Wider bars are helpful as is reduced trail to ease the effect of turning.
Would it be fair to say the idea of the sidecar rig from a design or engineering standpoint is a mistake? Unless the rig is going in a straight line on a perfectly consistent road surface, your going to have to live with the “idiosyncrasies” of pushing and dragging of what should be rolling tires?
Definitely NOT. It is a purpose designed vehicle. Like ALL purpose designed vehicles it has definitive limits. You accept those limits and live within them. Happily. Else you come to grief.
There are also limits based on self.
This applies to autos, SUVs, 18-wheelers, trains, and aeroplanes.
A motorcycle with a sidecar is no different in this respect.
Yes, it has limits. Deal with them.
no, no! thats not the case.if a rig is set up properly, there will be very little push or pull while driving it...it will be a blast!!If your rig has too little lead...sidecar wheel almost in line with the bike rear wheel axle, it will push the front wheel sideways more than usual on left turns.the further forward the tub axle is the easier lefties are, but the right turns will be harder. got to set up a good middle setting for both.the fork trail can also make the bike front wheel drag sideways a little. if it is too much.the other guys are more experts on this, and can elaborate on the subject.
Bob: One MUST separate each effect in order to determine the overall effect on the rig, and to fully understand the importance of its contribution. Then one can add the effects together and see the overall effect.
You are indeed correct - a well balanced rig should in fact be able to be driven ahead in a neutral state, ie, not accelerating nor decelerating at about 30 mph on a flat road with no dead or side winds under normal loading conditions. Now, we go from there. Add or subtract forces and or moments and see the effects such as higher ro lower sidecar loads, or head winds, or side winds, or the effects of acceleration, or deceleration, or of turning to left ot right. Everything you do adds forces or torque couples. And we learn to deal with them, either by the application of theory, or by practical experience (we try something, sh*t happens, we try to figure what and or why it happened, and resolve not to do it again - that is practical experience), or some combination of theory and of practical experience.
Now, returning to the effect of sidecar wheel lead. Let us for a minute go back a century to where sidecars were first installed on bikes. There was zero lead, there was zero toe-in, and there was zero lean-out. The bike was vertical. The sidecar wheel was exactly in line with the rear wheel. Under these conditions there was no scrubbing forces on the sidecar tire. It was exactly like a three-wheel auto with the front nearside wheel absent. The rig turned as easily to the left as it did to the right. On the other hand, on a sharp left-hander, the sidecar nose would easily dig in and the entire rig could easily overturn about the front wheel-sidecar wheel tipover line. However, in those days road speeds were slow so this was of little consequence. However, as road speeds increased so the sidecar lead increased to prevent the sidecar nose from digging in on sharp left-handers. As far as steering effort is concerned on sharp right-handers, this is of little consequence at speed because the sidecar wheel has little effective weight on the ground.
So now consider the effect of a LARGE sidecar LEAD such as used on a dragstrip racing sidecar rig, or on a rig set up for a handicapped person such as the TOMCO where the driver sits INSIDE the sidecar. With a sidecar wheel leed of between 18 to 24 inches the steering effort in either direction at slow speed is extremely great as the sidecar wheel must continuously crab. This is reflected by the extremely short life on tire for the TOMCO rigs. For the dragsters it does not matter as they run on loose gravel and not on hard concrete so the scrapping on the tires is not so bad. Of course, at speed, the same remarks apply for the right-hander at speed. There is little load on the sidecar wheel. But a lot on the left-hander.
For the NORMAL sidecar wheel lead of between 8 to 10 inches, the effect is between these two extremes. Typically, it is not too noticable for most machines under most conditions. Under some conditions it might be pronounced for a specific machine under a particular condition. And now you know why.
Of course, there are other effects to be taken into account - such as whether the bike is leaning in, or out, and lateral stability, and fork conditions, to name but a few. But you get the idea.
HAL…“Recall the original purpose of the sidecar was to serve as a vehicle deliberately designed to woo and transport the fair maiden”.
DUCK….Would it be fair to say the idea of the sidecar rig from a design or engineering standpoint is a mistake?
HAL….Definitely NOT. It is a purpose designed vehicle.
If the purpose designed vehicle was deliberately designed to woo and transport the fair maiden, then, the idea of the sidecar rig from a design or engineering stand point is a mistake! Surely the cat that deliberately designed and built the first hack could have wooed this fair maiden with something other than a perfectly good motor cycle hacked up with some goofy engineering mistake. My guess would be the shoulders on this guy would have been sufficient enough to woo her, but intellectually???.........ZERO
Before knocking the design engineeris of the era one would do well to be familiar with the life and times then existant. The Honda GW 1500 was to come 100 years LATER. The bikes of the time were skinny bicycles to which a puny motor had been added somewhere, it could have been inside the front wheel, or the rear wheel, or just under the saddle, or where one might find pedals on a bicycle which were still on the machine. There were no lights, no clutch, no gearbox, no brakes. These were still to be invented or developed.
As for the family auto - the few that around were strictly for the gentry and the ultra rich, not for the likes of you and me. We were damn lucky we could afford the few quid or bucks for this skinny bike with a puny motor.
So the car or auto was out. PERIOD. The solo bike was also out - just picture your gal trying to clamber on board your tall bike when it is moving at about 15 mph, her running just as fast as she can in her LONG skirts down to the ground, then jumping up to try to land on the back of your skinny moving bike! After she has fallen flat on her face a few times she is no longer your gal - so THAT IS ALSO OUT. She is probably MUCH BETTER off anyway.
And as has been mentioned in these posts several times, they tried, from 1895 through 1910 to fit a trailer carriage for the damsel to ride in and to be pulled behind the bike - that did not work, they tried to fit a rear carriage to the bike for the damsel to ride in and that did not work, and they also tried to fit a fore carriage to the bike for the damsel to ride in and that did not work. Then finally, they tried the sidecar - AND THAT DID WORK, and has worked ever since.
Now, please tell me what else might they have tried? It seems they were pretty damn persistent and that persistance paid off. It has given birth to a long and strong tradition that is supported in many countries. And yes, there are many variants today - sporting, racing, leisure, courting, business, and so on.
As mentioned in these
AND THAT DID WORK, and has worked ever since.
Now, please tell me what else might they have tried?
Okay, Okay….I give up, what else could they have tried.
Colleen and I stopped by a little joint Friday for lunch and bumped into a nice fellow riding a Ural sidecar rig, nice rig, a real Babe Magnet!!
Originally written by Bob in Wis on 11/4/2005 6:57 AM
no, no! thats not the case.if a rig is set up properly, there will be very little push or pull while driving it...it will be a blast!!If your rig has too little lead...sidecar wheel almost in line with the bike rear wheel axle, it will push the front wheel sideways more than usual on left turns.the further forward the tub axle is the easier lefties are, but the right turns will be harder. got to set up a good middle setting for both.the fork trail can also make the bike front wheel drag sideways a little. if it is too much.the other guys are more experts on this, and can elaborate on the subject.
Bob, as Hal mentions in his reply, there is a little more to it than that.
In addition to the sidecar wheel lead that you mentioned, the torque/hp of the bike and the amount of forward weight bias also have an effect, as do tarck width, overall height(or center of mass),tire adhesion(compound,tread pattern and inflation) and other factors. The sidecar is a complex beast!
My Tiger has a fair amount of lead( about 10" I think-been awhile since I measured it). It pushes the front tire sideways in hard Left AND Right turns if I don't use proper technique when turning. It is worse right now as I have a Russian street tread on the front and it has absolutly no grip on wet pavement.
With my rig I need to accelerate late in the corner, somewhere near or just past the apex, if I want to corner hard and fast. Left turns are quicker if
I shift my weight forward and lean hard on the handle bars to give the front wheel more grip. Right turns I get my speed off before I enter the turn using both brakes, then drag the front brake to adjust my speed, keeping some throttle on and gradually releas the front brake as I come around the corner. And I do indeed hang off in the corners and it does make a big difference.
How much difference these sort of techneques make varies from rig to rig. I suspect a large low heavy rig such as a Goldwing/Hannigan for instance, might not respond as noticeably to the same inputs that work well on my rig.
A euro style HP rig with a modified front end and sidecar wheel linked steering should be very stable and very neutral.
A Ural rig might require more constant vigilance nearing it's top speeds. It varies with the rig, setup, road and your driving style.
I try and set my rigs up to be straight line neutral at about 45mph(you can move the sweet spot around with your set up). If I am going to do a freeway slog, especially with a load in the hack, I dial in more leanout to make it drive straight at a higher speed. It seems to work for me.
VW
Bob: An EXCELLENT post - what works for me!
As I have always said - set your rig up for what what works for YOU and your driving style. Do NOT try to imitate anybody else be they neophyte or expert. They have their own rig and their own style.
You have your rig and your level of expertise. Improve that by careful practice in a safe controlled environment. Never overdrive your the level of your rig or your pwn capabilities - that is dumb and stupid. In fact, that is how we used to learn in the good old days BEFORE we wrote those manuals of just how smart we are NOW!
OK, Now we're getting back to basics.
I must congratulate you on your original post, Stickwelder. It has been very productive. You started with basic setup and we got almost all the way to the Isle of Man or Nurburgring with it.
Keep it up, it's going to be a long winter.
Lonnie
HACKN SAID>>>>OK, Now we're getting back to basics.I must congratulate you on your original post, Stickwelder. It has been very productive. You started with basic setup and we got almost all the way to the Isle of Man or Nurburgring with it.Keep it up, it's going to be a long winter>>>>>All you have to do is read my original post, right below 'Sticks' first post for the answer..
Mr. RedMenance
>sidecar wheel linked steering<
Haven’t heard this term yet, where can we see an example of sidecar wheel linked steering?
