Hey guys,
I haven't been on the forum for a while - but then again I haven't done much of anything fun for a while except work, but thats a different story.
Anyway, I really wanted to share my experience with putting the 5 degree raked triple tree from Liberty on my '05 Ultra with TLE Ultra sidecar.
We discussed it a bit on the board here and I know everyone told me it would make a difference but I was totally unprepared for the result! A buddy of mine whose a top notch bike wrencher and I had fiddled with it dialing in the lean and toe in and had it really handling pretty well but after the discussion here I just couldn't resist seeing what we could get with the addition of the raked triple tree. The folks at Liberty said it would steer more like a sports car instead of the truck I was used to but I thought this was at least part hype - no way. Wellll, leme tell ya - they weren't exaggerating! With the new triple-tree we reset the lean to zero, left the toe-in at factory specs and tossed the steering damper - they were right, it was totally unnecessary - and ohmagod it was like a totally differenht vehicle! Lane changes can now be performed, literally, with just two fingers on the handlebars - not that I would of course 😉 Side pull during acceleration and braking is dramatically down, most times barely perceptable. Left hand turns from a standstill, like at a stoplight, used to be a wrestling match between me and the handlebars. Now the sidecar simply swings around the bike like it had it's own drive wheel! I haven't taken any long trips yet but I have spent the better part of the day in the saddle and finished up wishing for more. Before, after an hour or two I was ready to give the old arms a rest.
The only downside, if you can call it that, is that the rig handles SO well that you have to be a bit more careful not to get into trouble. I had taken the ballast out of the car after about the first thousand miles and was quite comfortable with it, but with the new setup I put it back in for the next 1K because turns were so much easier that I didn't realize that I was taking them faster. Once I got used to it tho' I found I really didn't need it anymore.
The mod isn't exactly cheap - $850 for the triple tree plus installation if you can't do it yourself - but absolutely without a doubt worth it. Everything fit perfectly - kudos to the guys from Liberty who did a fine job designing it.
Seriously, if you've got a HD rig with a sidecar you really should consider this mod, you won't regret it.
Joe, everything you said I have to agree 100%. I also just installed a 6 degree EZ-Steer and threw away the steering damper and like you I had gone to no ballast and now feel I need some so I put in 80 lbs. For the last two years I had been taking the sidecar off and as soon as I rode it like that a couple times I couldn't wait to get it back on again. I also have a 2 wheeler so I don't mind leaving the sidecar on now all the time. I got this one mostly for giving rides to my grandkids because at 4-5 and 6 they are too short for the law to allow them to ride on the back seat and not touch the pegs. Also one boy has a tendency to fall asleep pretty quick so a sidecar seemed to be the answer. The bonus is that my wife just loves to ride in the car also.
Ralph
Yea, I've still got a two wheeler also, but this setup is such a pleasure to drive I have to keep the trickle charger on the solo rig so it'll be ready to go. It doesn't get anywhere near as much street time as it used to. lol.
My reasons for getting the sidecar were the same as yours. I really didn't trust my daughter (then 7) to stay awake on the road. Now every time we go somewhere together we have to take HER sidecar 🙂
Only question is, how did you convince your wife to get in? I haven't got a handle on that one yet.
We usually take a trip to Panama City each spring - I ride my Ultra solo and she & the kids are in the van. The way this rig is handling now, I'm seriously considering taking it instead of the solo.
Well, my wife used to get tired riding on the back seat if it was a long day. Maybe my idea of a average day and hers were different. Anyhow she likes the weather protection and the comfortable seat better. We also have a little dog which is hard to carry up on the bike between us and so works much better in the sidecar. We pull a Roll-A-Home pop-up camper a lot. When I first hooked it up I thought this is just too much weight to go rolling down the road but it seems to work pretty well. Without the trailer it gets 30 plus mpg and with the camper drops down to mid twenties. If I keep it around 55-60 I can get 35 without and 30 with the camper.
Ralph
The effects of reducing the trail on any rig by any means can be dramatic. Glad to see some happy sidecarists here that have done it. No doubt that Liberty has it together in their design.
One warning though. Reduced trail of course makes steering very easiy. This is a good thing and a great improvement. The down side is that such eay steering can many time mask a bad setup. What I am getting at is that even though it is very important to monitor tire wear on any rig it may be something that is overlooked easier on a rig that is steering so easily. Be sure to Keep an eye on the tires and adjust things as/if needed.
I would think that tire wear should be even better, no? I mean if I was having to use force on the handlebars before, that had to translate into scuffing at the contact patch producing that resistance. At this point the lean is zero so the bike is not having to "skid" to pull the car straight. All of the correction is coming from the sidecar toe-in, and that is set right in the middle of the manual specs.
Joe
The asymetrical load on your rig that caused the pull is just as strong as it was before you changed the trail. The weight of the sidecar and it's wind resistance that caused the pull with the stock front end did not change with the new front end, only the ease you could overcome the pull with steering input changed.
It is now so much easier to steer and control that you no longer notice the pull because of the new front end geometry. The increased sense of control is what Claude is referring to as it can mask a poorly set up rig.
This is not to suggest your rig is or is not set up correctly, no way to tell from here. Tire wear will answer the question soon enough. When you see a wear pattern starting in on your rear tire come back and describe it and Claude, myself or others will explain how it relates to rig setup. With the increased control it takes far less effort to scrub rubber of your tires, I know this from personal experience chewing up my own tires. It makes sense you were able to toss the steering dampner, but I'm suprised it had a big effect on the amount of lean or toe in required.
The only thing I changed on my FLHR/TLE rig after Pete's 5 degree trees was adding 1 degree of lean out, which further improved it.
Lonnie
Northwest Sidecar
Good post Tod! On any rig the tell tale signs of a decent setup is always tire wear and how well it feels to the driver (rider, operator, jockey or whatever). Specs are specs and we may discuss a lot of numbers but the final outcome is what counts...and then even that can usually be improved upon :-).
I find this thread very interesting. I'm making notes since I'm a newcomer to this.
We just put a Steerite 5 degree triple tree on my Valkyrie/Spyder rig. The weather here has been bad so I've only rode it once around the block. BIG difference! However, the increased rake lowered the front end slightly and the Valk leaned out more with the resultant pull to the left.
I certainly will seriously consider all the caveats here. I read up on Hals's sidecar manual and understand things enough to know that there still will be consideable tweaking. I have a tire depth gage and will be taking readings so that maybe I can detect a wear pattern before it gets out of hand.
One question though. I'm running an Avon radial MC tire on the back. Should I do all the tweaking before I install a Goodyear Triple Tread car tire which I have waiting. For your info, many Valk riders are running car tires on the rear, while two wheeling, with good success but that's another story.
Wayne
Wayne wrote: "I find this thread very interesting. I'm making notes since I'm a newcomer to this.We just put a Steerite 5 degree triple tree on my Valkyrie/Spyder rig. The weather here has been bad so I've only rode it once around the block. BIG difference! However, the increased rake lowered the front end slightly and the Valk leaned out more with the resultant pull to the left.I certainly will seriously consider all the caveats here. I read up on Hals's sidecar manual and understand things enough to know that there still will be consideable tweaking. I have a tire depth gage and will be taking readings so that maybe I can detect a wear pattern before it gets out of hand.One question though. I'm running an Avon radial MC tire on the back. Should I do all the tweaking before I install a Goodyear Triple Tread car tire which I have waiting. For your info, many Valk riders are running car tires on the rear, while two wheeling, with good success but that's another story.Wayne"Wayne you are correct in saying that the front will be lowered with a tree modification and,yes, lean out will be changed slightly. Swapping tires as you are planning to do will also more than likely make the setup change slightly. The question that only you can answer is whether the slight change you have due to the tree mods being done or the possible change that the new tire will make will in fact mean much in the real world. We discuss many figures related to setup on these forums but no exact numbers for a perfect setup are possible to give as all rigs will always be a little different as will riders , rider weight , riding styles etc etc. So, even though you or anyone has gotten some basic numbers releated to your setup tweaked into the rig it doesn't mean they are right for you or wrong for anyone else. This is the point we have sorta tried to make here in this thread. Tire wear and handling are the proof of a good or bad setup on a specific rig and even though the basics will apply no set numbers will ever be gospel across the board. In other words try not to get wrapped up in a numbers game when in fact they may only let us be able to compare apples to oranges in real life. Personally I would leave your rig alone for now if it were mine and doing okay. After you change the tire then begin to tweak the setup until you go past the 'sweet spot'. After taking the time to do the initial setup Always know where you started so you can get back to whatever point you were at if it gets dialed out of place. No, you do not have to take all the measurements each time. If you count the turns on a strut or whatever you can go back. Then after it is where you think it is good then take real measurements for the record. Before doing the intitial setup you should have checked to see if changing lean out does increase toe in, decrease toe in or if it does not affect it. Some rigs are radically different than others in this area. This can be especially true if the subframe was not engineered with this in mind or if it has no subframe. All of this falls under the category of getting to know your rig and to me should be an intergral part of the sidecar experience. Some will not agree with that statement and feel that since the rig was setup properly to begin with all is well. That may be true and if they are happy with it then no problem. There isn't much real mystry in setting up and then adjusting a sidecar rig if common sense is used.
I agree Claude. I'm staying flexible. I'm glad that you mentioned lean out might affect toein.
Since we have to do a little adjusting on the lower attachments and the sub frame, we'll be going through the complete drill again. I find that this is very interesting and that no two rigs are the same. I still value peoples input on this forum for the "Why didn't I think of that" thoughts.
I retired from being an associate engineer with North American Philips. I worked in the environmental lab where we tested "black boxes" under environmental conditions: shock, vibration, temp/altitude, explosion, salt spray, etc. We had a sign over the doorway to the labs. It said "One Test is worth a Thousand Expert Opinions." It was meant to be joking just as it is here. Please don't take offense.
I learn by reading these posts. Thanks again.
wayne
Agree 100% Wayne. Definatley no offense taken. I hope offense is/was taken by my previous post either. Forums such as sidecar.com and SCT have done a lot of good to help many understand more about their rigs. It really is not an issue if we all agree on every jot and tittle but if you read enough at these places a pattern of agreement between the ones who have been around a while will begin to unfold on many subjects. We are all in an ongoing learning curve. Some things will come to light in the future, as they have in the past, that can make our rigs handle better than they do today. Some things will stay basically the same too.
Being flexible as you called it and keeping in mind that we should never get it in our mind that we can no longer learn something is the key to making the sidecar experience a very gratifying thing.
Please keep us posted on your situstion.
I really do appreciate the input of you veteran sidecarists. I learn a lot from every post. I was noticing more rear tire wear on the right side {hack side} so I tilted the bike to the left a little. Also, I went down to 1/4'' toe in instead of the suggested 1 and 1/4" Champion instructions said. I think that these changes have made a difference on this tire I have on now. It seems to be wearing even and is also looking like it will last more miles than the last one. I am using the E-3. I took the rig out today because it was 28 degrees and the roads are mostly dry. I hadn't rode for 2 months and I am still feeling the buzz of excitement from breaking up my winter hybernation.
Ralph
Appreciate all the feedback.
Claude, you said handling and tire wear are the indicators of a good setup. From a handling standpoint I don't see any issues. Turns are soild and predictable and straight line performance at speed, acceleration and deceleration couldn't be better. That only leaves tire wear. What kinds of patterns should be expected and over what period of time? Also why does the rear tire always seem to be the issue instead of the front tire, which is, after all, the steering tire? I'm trying to picture the geometry here that puts the force on the rear tire preferentially.
Joe
