I have both and being a proud"Scooter Scum"(a nick name given me by a biker friend) both are scoots. That being said, the scoot trike is easier to ride but the
scoot/sidecar is more fun. And requires more riding skill. Being a small businessman I can see both sides of the bad service situation but I can say that once a
customer is lost by the impolite actions of an employee more will be lost as one customer knows others who may be looking to buy or use the service in question
and bad news travels fast.
Hmmmmm____ ! Well I guess I should put in a comment or two here being one of the people that left California Sidecars and eventually formed Champion Sidecars. I probably wouldn't have commented but the idea of taking technology from CSC at the time is laughable at best. Frankly they didn't have any to take. Why we left CSC is a personal matter and has or had no bearing on their products. We left with no intention of starting another company. It just happened that at our final dinner meeting before Peter and I were going to leave California we started joking about the quality of the CSC products and commenting to each other what we would do differently. During this Craig suggested that maybe we should and things started happening from there. Our first Escort sidecar was put together in a matter of weeks in Pete's garage so we could show it at Americade. It was not perfect but we got it there and sold quite a few. Finally there was a sidecar that was sized more for an adult. Entry was and still is as easy or easier than any out there. And imagine, an electrical trim system or TILT designed and named by Peter. Now it is standard in the industry. Then it was a first. Of course there was also real suspension, not the old stiff torsion bars that made owners use 16psi in their tires to get a decent ride. About three years later in 93 CSC finally realized they had to upgrade their FII to compete. They also had the FIII that they bought from EZS and renamed. Of course the triple tree modifications we did were the next thing they copied. I came up with the idea from conversations with our Japanese connection and we had Peter work out and design the details for the first GL1500 clamps. I still remember the customer that bought the one that CSC copied. Actually when they installed it on their test bike the steering was so light and quick it scared them. They reduced the amount of trail reduction to slow it down rather than ride it a bit and get used to it. Anyway, the point here is that maybe it is not a good idea to run off at the mouth about something you know nothing about.
As far as the salesman problem at Champion goes, he was fired. I also know a little more about this conversation than most and will just say that sometimes the attitude of the customer on the phone can aggravate the situation. I am not though saying that this gives the sales person license to be rude with customers. He paid for that mistake with his job.
At DMC we still do the best we can to support customers with CSC sidecars now they cannot get help from the manufacturer. Barry
I guess it's just a coincidence that the Champion Escort looks exactly like the California Friendship I and Friendship II sidecars.
Sorry, my error!
I guess this is all pretty much moot now that champion is walking away from sidecars in favor of tricycle conversions.
Lonnie
the one good thing about the prevalence of trikes
sidecars are much rarer now
i run into a whole lot of harley guys who claim they know "all that is harley" and they just cant believe that my sidecar is factory till they look at the vin plate
to
Ok, you were talking about technology. Now you want to talk about body design. I have no problem saying we decided to use a body design similar to the FI and FII. Notice I said similar, not the same. I personally built the body and aside from the fact it was considerably larger, had a totally different front opening and actually had front running and turn signal lights, it even had a built in automotive tail light. A considerable step up from the little accessory lights on the rear (only) of the Friendship models. Both Peter and I wanted to go with a new design but Craig felt it was to our advantage to stay with a proven popular design similar to CSC models he had been selling for a number of years. Three years after the first Escort when CSC finally decided to upgrade their FII model, it is obvious from comparing the two bodies they at least pulled some of their new body design directly off of an Escort. Of course in keeping with their past history they eliminated the front running/signal light.
I ran the CSC parts department for a couple years and during summers drove their displays to shows around the country and helped sell their products so I know them very well. Aside from the poor suspension design that could in a worse case scenario break and cause complete loss of the wheel and swing arm, they had some very scary mounting systems. A lot of that got improved when Peter went to work for them for a short time.
Just as a footnote, CSC got their start by buying out another sidecar company. Sometimes the facts are stranger than fiction. LOL B
Barry Wrote:
>> Aside from the poor suspension design that could in a worse case scenario break and cause complete loss of the wheel and swing arm, they had some very scary mounting systems?<<
JUST CURIOUS...WHO CAME UP WITH THE CSC TORSION BAR DESIGN ANYHOW?
Barry,
Interesting but still moot in regards to product support. Both companies are Trike oriented now and both have stopped production of sidecars.
The pre-1989 CSC cars with the ball and collet lower mounts that used marble sized ball with the extruded steel "flower" held together with a 5/16" bolt was a scary lower mount. The move to a clevis and heim joint connection made a big safety improvement.
In 1988 we ran across a bad wreck on US Highway 197 just south of the Dalles. Oregon that involved a new Harley Ultra mounted FSI that had become unattached due to a lower mount failure. A State Trooper said there was one man dead and his wife in the sidecar had sustained multiple injuries.
Good to have you and Brock on the Forums sharing your insight and knowledge with us. New technology and old experiences add interest to the site.
Be well and pet your dog,
Lonnie
one of the reasons i ride a stock hd sidecar is that its the most time proven design.
ive had folks laugh at how heavy duty all the parts are - but they dont break
to
Harley sidecars may be a "time proven" design but pretty much every other company that builds sidecars figured out long before WW2 that suspension is a good thing, Harley never caught on to this. If Ford were still building model "T"'s would you want one as they would also be a "time proven" design? Technology moves on, with improvments like suspension with shocks and not just springs undampened on the body, many more modern sidecars also offer electric trim adjustment which is nice not only for load (I know, not needed on a sidecar with no suspension for load adjustment) but also to adjust for road conditions and speed traveled. Also many more modern sidecars are set up with a trunk that opens from the out side and locks they also are made in such a way that they are much easier to get in and out of either with opening front sections or cut down sides. And most modern sidecars run a 4 point mounting system which is more riged then the 3 point Harley mounts.
Jay G
DMC sidecars
www.dmcsidecars.com
866-638-1793
jaydmc - 8/23/2012 5:11 PM
We are a dealer for Champion sidecars, They have told me in the past that while they have never in house installed one on the Baker many other people have and that they will work. I have not installed one my self to know, I know in the case of the 5 speed reverse kits the only issue we had was that the case bolts were 1/4 inch to long which was not an issue at all to fix, we just cut them down 1/4 inch.
Jay G
DMC sidecars
www.dmcsidecars.com
866-638-1793
Can you provide some reliable led lights dealer?
timo482 - 10/5/2012 12:41 PM
one of the reasons i ride a stock hd sidecar is that its the most time proven design.
ive had folks laugh at how heavy duty all the parts are - but they dont break
to
I just took a friend 95 miles yesterday to pick up his Ural after the 3 time for warranty work in Atlanta. He weights 275 pounds and do to my Harley Rig being ridged I did not have to do any adjustments like you do with a hack with suspension! My friend said the ride was fine only problem was him getting his big ass out. LOL Others can say what they want but the Harley rid has province it self long before many others where even making a sidecar. But I do agree run what you like I do.
Rised - 10/5/2012 1:21 PM
jaydmc - 8/23/2012 5:11 PM
We are a dealer for Champion sidecars, They have told me in the past that while they have never in house installed one on the Baker many other people have and that they will work. I have not installed one my self to know, I know in the case of the 5 speed reverse kits the only issue we had was that the case bolts were 1/4 inch to long which was not an issue at all to fix, we just cut them down 1/4 inch.
Jay G
DMC sidecars
www.dmcsidecars.com
866-638-1793Can you provide some reliable led lights dealer?
Well that is not what the representative for champion told me and he did not even know what a DD6 was so how the hell did he even know?????????? He told me quote[It flat will not work end of discussion!]quote. It a shame as the last a sale on a reverse kit and a raked tree! All I ask Champion was to send me a letter of apology which is not asking much but it was not worth their time I guess! That is OK as there are many others out there. I have talked to many others that feel the same way I do.
