Hello again.....I'm ringing back-in on this because i do not agree with one of the previous replies that opposed the use of seat belts when carrying a child passenger in your car. The writer did state that any and all types of safety gear should be used and i certainly agree with that...helmets,gloves, eye protection, dirt-bike body protection might be prudent as well. Now as for seat belts, i would continue to suggest that
a child be at least 4 y.o., preferably placed in a steel car, that DEFINATELY has a roll bar, and the child is held in place by a seat -belt, this is the same criteria i would use if placing them into a convertible sports car. If an adult is placed in the car along with the child as this same writer talks of, i would suggest that only be done if the car is a dual seat widebody, and the child should be constrained by his own seat belt. I think lap-riding is a more risky endeavor. The young child needs containment in order for the driver to have the freedom to take extreme defensive manuevers-- the fragile egg scenario talked of in this previous reply is a point -of-view that seems to only entail a rig's collision with a four wheeler, that is something you will want to avoid at all costs. One thing all of the repliers and i share in common is a safe and fun experience for children. I hope you have progressed to a 3 wheel plane, and while baby is too young to ride, gain some valuable experience with your rig!! Best wishes !! Leo
Per Leo: (sic)
"Now as for seat belts, i would continue to suggest that
a child be at least 4 y.o., preferably placed in a steel car, that DEFINATELY has a roll bar, and the child is held in place by a seat -belt, this is the same criteria i would use if placing them into a convertible sports car............."
Steel car? Why? Blunt force trauma remains the same, whether the body is fiberglass, aluminum or steel and regardless of the age of the passenger.
Not many convertible sports cars (real sports cars)have roll bars.
I personally have never seen a sidecar rig roll completely over. Lots of SUVs have though and killed their passengers while doing so.
I agree on seat belt use for a small child or car seat use, if applicable, but reasonable parameters should be maintained.
If a roll bar for your small child, why not one for your wife, mother, teenager? Grandpa? Are they less important? More inured to trauma?
There are certain inherent perils in life:
A- Some try to avoid them at all costs and lead a bland existence.
B- Some face them armed with information, knowledge and common sense and are greatly rewarded.
C- Some try to thread a line between the two. Sidecarists fall somewhere between B and C.
I consider myself a B.
Cheers,
Lonnie
Or to put it a bit differently, it's about risk acceptance and managing the risk. If you choose to ride (or most any enjoyable pursuit) you have to realize the risk, accept it, then manage it with skill and knowledge...
Seems like this thread is working on becoming all inclusive as related to topic.
Seatbelts?
I agree with Tom on the idea of risk acceptance and management of it. The topic of seatbelts in a sidecar does come up from time to time and there is no clearly defined answer when we weigh all of the facts and varied possiblities out there related to crashes.
I do feel that a seatblet for a young one is beneficial as a restrait to them moving about and possibly getting into trouble. I also am confident it will be of assistance in a minor accident.
When things get much beyond the fender bender stage many many variables come into play and the ability of a simple belt system in a hack becomes more and more questionable.
In order to provide the optimum saftey factor the roll bar and belt system has to be designed to work together. What I mean by this is that if the roll bar is connected to the sidecar frame and the belt system is bolted to the sidecar body there is a big chance that in a real crash the efectiveness of each item will be greatly compromised.
Face it most sidecar bodies are held onto the frame with four or five bolts. To think that the body will stay intact is folly. Fiberglass can desitergrate and steel can turn into a total mess too.
Probably the safest way to construct a retraint system with real roll over protection is to build a 'pod' for the passenger(s)in the form of a roll cage with the seat and the belts secured to it. The idea of a full cage is an effort to keep the precious cargo confined to a safe spot that will hopefully remain structurally sound in a serious crash. This assembly could be attached in a positive manner to the sidecar frame or it could be designed to break away as a unit. BUT...seriously, will anyone decide to go to these extremes? Probably not. There is a point where we can feel we have done what we feel is required to provide saftey to our loved ones. Where this point is can only be decided by each individual and then they simply need to take the responsibility to live with it.
Maybe a factor here that is of even more importance on an individual basis is how much effort each of us takes to become proficient in handling our rigs safey , or as safely as possible,under varied situations. So so many crashes could be avoided if the operator had taken the time and made the effort to expand his or her riding (driving?) skills. Practice is the key. Practice evasive moves. Practice in a safe place and push your limits under controlled conditions to expand your skills. Read Hal's books, take a sidecar course and then practice!! Keep in mind that there is nothing on the printed page or in a class that will teach you to be able to ride a sidecar rig.What i mean here is that These venues ,as good as they are, will only give you information and a little hands on experience, in the case of a class, on how to practice to learn how to drive a sidecar better and better. We can plan our actions but cannot plan our reactions. Life saving reactions can only come automatically by practice.
Sidecars are basically safe vehicles but there is still risk invloved. Stare the risk in the face and make every attempt to minimise it through having a safe well built, and wel balanced, rig and knowing how to operate it under various conditions. Otherwise stay home and turn on the tube.
I guess we're pretty much in agreement with most of the issues, except perhaps the seatbelt one and to tell you the truth I think it comes down to personal preference. Unlike the auto industry, where there is a wealth of good hard data on the results of seatbelt use, we simply don't have that kind of data for sidecars, and what seems logical at first isn't always born out in real life. Examples:
1.) Airbags save lives. Well, usually, except now we know that small children can be just as easily killed by airbags as helped because of the the way it can strike them. Final recommendation from the NTSB: always put your small kids in the back seat, or deactivate the airbag if they are in the front.
2.) Seat belts save lives. Well, except if it is worn on a small child because they don't have the muscle tone to resist the whiplash effect. Final recommendation: use carseats, and make sure they face backwards until the child is out of infancy.
3.) Always make sure that your child sleeps on their stomach in case they vomit in their sleep so they wont choke. This was gospel for most childrens doctors a generation ago. Except now we know that SIDS is much more likely to occur in the face down position, so the universal recommendation is that infants sleep on their backs.
4.) Make the car as strong and rigid as possible to protect the occupants in the event of a crash. Except now we know, from NASCAR and INDY car racing that a car which is designed to fragment in certain ways protects better but absorbing the force of the impact. Hence "crush zones" are now designed into passenger cars.
The list goes on and on. I'm really not trying to talk someone out of installing belts if they really feel that is the way to go. I almost did it myself. My only point is that the real world test data (or accident data) simply does not exist for sidecars and the safety industry is full of examples of ideas that sounded good and logical at first but later, as hard data was collected, turned out to be of questionable value, and in some cases actually harmful. I think this is one of those cases where the answer simply isn't there, and considering the wide variety in size, weight, design, and construction of sidecars the answer may not be "one size fits all". The value and safety of a belt in a reinforced enclosed sidecar with a roll bar may be, and probably is, different than in an open fiberglass model such as mine is, and each driver needs to take a good hard look at their setup, take into account what we DO know about motorcycle accidents such as the fact that 74% of motorcycle crashes ARE in fact multivehicle accidents, usually involving cars (HURT Report, 1981) and ask themselves "is the inside of that sidecar the place where I'd want to be during that accident?" I suspect the answer is going to vary and there would be very little hard data to support of refute either position. This is going to be one of those situations where common sense is going to have to be a factor. Would anyone seriously consider riding a solo bike with a seatbelt? Of course not. Is there really any doubt that in a car, at least in most cases, you've got a better chance of survival with a seatbelt? Of course not. Now we're riding vehicles that are somewhere in-between, and are very different from each other. With my setup I came to the conclusion that being restrained may not be the best bet. Could I be wrong? Sure. But at this point I don't really think we know.
Now on the other hand there are some stratigies that have clearly been shown to be of value: DOT/Snell approved helmets, body protection, defensive driving habits, avoidance of alcohol in ANY amount if you're going to be the driver (sorry guys - I know it's a great feeling to wash the dust down with a beer during a pit stop but there is simply no such thing as a safe amount of alcohol for a rider), safe following distances etc. But you know, even the helmet thing is a different can of worms for a small child (I'm talking infant/toddler here) Just the weight of the baby's head alone i
Leo,
Revisiting the "Rollbar" issue:
If the Green KAW rig you have for sale in the want ads is the one you were referring to as having a roll bar I'm afraid you were mislead. When Matt Humphrey, DBA Springfield Motorcycle and Sidecar Company, used to distribute the reinvented Jupitor back in 1995 (renamed Sputnik 3) he used to call that piece of pipe a 'Tent support" since it was held on by two brackets that bolted to the sheet metal top edge of the sidecar body. Roll bar? Not!
It is a nice looking outfit though.
lonnie
On 10/10 I did a post related to seatbelt installation. Part of that post said:
>>.. Face it most sidecar bodies are held onto the frame with four or five bolts. To think that the body will stay intact is folly. Fiberglass can desitergrate and steel can turn into a total mess too....<<
Some one had taken exception to this and made an issue about it being said that 'most sidecar bodies are held onto the frame with four or five bolts'. The thing they overlooked is that the key word in my statement is 'MOST'. And yes 'MOST' sidecar bodies are indeed held on the way I described it..'most'! Some are not. The Watsonian and Vetter Terraplane sidecars come to mind as exceptions as they have a true perimeter frame where the body actually sits inside the frame instead of on top of it. This ,by design, would seem to be a safer assembly. In fact it probably is in most cases.The person who 'corrected' me was speaking of a Watsonian. So, if we take out the word 'MOST' from my statement I have no problem with being corrected..no big deal. In fact to be blunt I myself own a Watsonian and have also put many miles on a Terraplane and am well aware of how the bodies mount to these sidecars. AGAIN..THE KEY WORD WAS 'MOST' and in light of that my original statement was true. I was told a story of how this person ran into a truck with his watsonian and did no damage to th esidecar body. Good for them..but... if they had been operating a sidecar that had th ebody mounted as 'most' sidecar bodies are mounted there would have no doubt been damage to the body.
Yadda Yadda....
As Claude said,most are mounted to the frames with bolts again as he said the watsonian and vetter terraplane have a frame to surround the body.
Harleys now are mounted with 6 bolts to 2 pieces of steel that are mounted "between" leaf spring's for suspension and those are mounted to the frame.
But I also agree with what Tom Reardon said about "Risk management" WE need to understand,learn and practice with these things to reduce the chances for a error on our part and to help reduce the risk from others harming us.
To me bottom line is if you feel safer with seatbelts than install them,everything has a risk this sport is no different
Now that the subject of Watsonian has come up I would like to add some relevant fact and some not so relevant facts. The MOST pulicized sidecar in the WORLD is in fact a Watsonian. It is used as the USCA logo. That logo is not of any bike but of MY bike. And it not of just ANY Watsonian. The logo is an artists rendition of a professional road tester putting MY Laverda 3C/Watsonian GP through its paces in the UK outside Sutton, Surrey with the sidecar wheel gently elevated in a sweeping lefthander. The photo was published in MotoCycle, a famous UK Motorcycling weekly newsrag.
The Watsonian GP depicted is/was of MANY Watsonians. The frame was resurected from two wrecked Watsonians, one smashed in the front but the rear was good. The second a brick wall had collapsed over it but front section was salvageable. A third had the been pranged and the frame twisted but the body was OK. What makes these Watsonians unique is that they are virtually indestructable. In my case we just married the two good portions of the frames together and with the body from the third wreck came out with a very nice rig.
You want one a bit longer? Just cut and splice - both outer frame and inner bodywork and it is as long as you want.
You want one a bit wider? Just cut and splice - both outer frame and inner bodywork and it is as wide as you want. Too many were doing this so Watsonian got into the market and came out with their own double wide models a few years ago - but they used new designs, not the way the shade tree mechanics did.
Warning - as Watsonian found out, there are BIG stresses when you begin to oversize ANY sidecar rig. And your risks increase. All must be accounted for. If you canna do the basic engineering required, then forget it.
Take a look as another option, as with this sidecar your motorcycle htmstays a motorcycle...
http://www.side-car.net/PagesAng/options.htm
Michel
Whew.....Thanks to everyone who has added to this issue of children and sidecars. The "fleximum" concept found on previous thread is an interesting concept...Does anyone have experience with this particular company..?????
It appears obvious that there is a wide range of views on child- containment, seatbelts, crash characteristics etc. I agree whole-heartedly with those who have suggested to avoid collision with another vehicle, and especially a head-on, the additive forces would be terrible.
The primary reason to contain a child would be in "evasive" manuevers. Surely, we all would agree, avoiding a SUV collision is an absolute MUST..!! The key suggestion - - Practice, practice, practice.....and push the limits. The roll-bar that is attached to sheet-metal only and not super-structure, is better than none at all.
Thanks again to all who have added there experience and opinions to this issue. Happy 3-wheeling to everyone !!!
"The roll-bar that is attached to sheet-metal only and not super-structure, is better than none at all."
I must disagree with this.
Added loose or torn metal is an added hazard in the event of a roll-over incident.
It's all, or nothing at all.
Lonnie
sodecar leo wrote:
"The roll-bar that is attached to sheet-metal only and not super-structure, is better than none at all."
Lonnie wrote:
I must disagree with this.
Added loose or torn metal is an added hazard in the event of a roll-over incident.
It's all, or nothing at all.
Lonnie
Pretty much agree Lonnie. If there is a rollbar attached to sheetmetal only it would be best if it was set on a larger metal plate to distribute th eload a little better than just a small area on the metal body. Even at that it is 'iffy' at best and could even cause a traped situation in some cases. Roll bars ,if they are going to be efective at all should be ultimately fastened to the frame or some substantial sttructure and braced fore and aft to keep them from moving. Is this ever done? Probably not.
Hi, just a quick note on finding a helmet for a child under 4 years old. I ran across a helmet on eBay the other day for dogs. It was a full blown helmet, not something with the ears cut out etc... Not sure if one would fit a baby or small child, but worth looking into.
