This also happened to me coming down a hill with a right hand curve I also wound up crossing the center line.
I was not traveling over the speed limit but should of slowed down more before entering the curve. I never relized the
sidecar wheel came off the ground. Because the wheel was off the ground the more I tried to push her right she would go left
just the way a two wheeled motorcycle would respond to countersteering. What the Driving a sidecar rig book says to do in a curve like this
is to slow down, apply slight front break and light throttle at the same time while in the turn not before. This slight breaking is supposed to
keep the nose of the sidecar down and the slight throttle is supposed to help drag the rig thru the turn. Unfortunately this is something I
cannot duplicate praticing in a flat level parking lot. You can pratice the break and throttle manuever which takes time to get used to. Very
awkward at first but possible. Any other sugggestions on what to do if the wheel comes up in this situation besides pray. I am very hesitant
to try that hill on for size again until I know I can do it safly. By the way The rig is a Harley touring model with a 300lb Dpner that had 80lbs
of ballast in her at the time.
You really have little to no control when the wheel is off of the ground. The only answer is to maintain a speed that will permit you to keep the wheel on the ground if an eventuality such as the OP mentions comes up.
It's all very well to practice raising the wheel but it does little good on a sharp, off-camber turn with a car coming your way and too high a speed to keep the wheel down.
Let's face it, a sidecar has a tough time on right turns (US and Protectorates, LOL) and we simply have to be careful.
For my part, I tend to keep my speed to a level that permits me to keep the rig under control at all times. The reason is that I learned my lesson one day about 15 years ago when the wheel came up on my Shovelhead with TLE rig and I wound up caressing a fence since I was going too fast and could not get the wheel down. Had I tried to bring the wheel down on the off-camber road with the right turn that I unexpectedly encountered, I would have flipped and taken my wife with me. So I took the path of least resistance. The result was some motorcycle damage but no lasting injuries.
I know it's not macho to keep your safe speed but that's the way I do it. I go faster in a straight line or even a left turn but those right turns can be difficult. That's one reason why I gave up group rides with solo motorcycles.
Just my opinion.
P.S. As far as the wild turkeys so, they are very tasty with a bottle of nice Chianti and some Fava beans....where did I hear that line.........?
I try to use my left hand for most of the steering in the turns so my right hand can use the throttel and brake. Along with trying to start on center line on right hand turns then going to the inside of the curve and power out to the center line agein out of the curve, that along with weight shift and handel bar torque. This all good on short curves now those long one's thing can change some. Now to left I my use the rear brake a littel and not the front, but now be carefull their. In the old dayes we would race to the left. Then use the rear brake to set up for a turn downshift , throttel brakes the rear wheel lose bring the rear wheel around spinning, but not to much or you would be set up to-far into the curve or the hack wheel lock on something then it really gettes bad( I've done that to It's bad)Rudyr
This topic has come up so many times, has been written about so many times etc etc. The key is to practice and practice right. We do not really need to get into another debate about counterstering and all of that. The key is practice. This can be done safely in a safe place if anyone is willing to take th etime to do it. NO NO NO a sidecar rig does not magically revert to two wheell steering as soon as th ewheel comes offf the ground...NO!! IF THAT WAS SO WE COULD JUST TURN LEFT TO GO RIGHT AND ALL WOULD BE JUST PEACHY.
Those who say they cannot turn right any longer? They have reached a place where two things can be happening. ONE: They have gotten themselves into a place that is beyond their skill envelope.
TWO: They have totally overcooked their entry speed or misjusdged the turn radius or didn't see that obsticle in the road. There are limits to cornering speed with any and all vehicles.....where that limit is can be detected with pratice.
Number ONE can be bettered. Number TWO can also be bettered with technique.
Hal Kendall, myself and many others prefer to say that a sidecar wheel in a turn off the ground is different than flying the chair, so to speak. Agressive cornering can mean the sidecar wheel is up off the road. Flying the chair shoudl mean getting the rig up to a balance point and driving around that way. YES, there is a difference!
Good points by rudyr....The key to good cornering in a right hander (toward the chair) is to enter the turn out near the centerline so you can see as far through the turn for a long as possible before comitting to it. Braking while still going basically striaght is good. Once you feel you can get through the turn at the speed you are going then you can accelrate and still be in control. Don't wory about cornering speed at first as it will come as good technique is practiced. Yes, working the front brake while on the throttle is a good thing to learn. It WILL help t keep the sidecar down once mastered. This technique increases the slip angle of the rear tire and can lead into drifting but that is another story.
No debates needed here just remember a couple of things...we can plan our actions but not our reactions. Actions can be good intentions from reading a printed page but reactions can only come through practice. Reactions whether good or bad will determine the out come of many situations. P R A C T I C E and 'run your own race'. Don't worry about keeping up with anyone while learning technique. If you practice well it won't be long before those who you were trying to keep up with may be wondering how to keep up with you. Don't be concerned about speed i twill come in time if you practice and of course if you have well balanced outfit to begin with.
Most who have been at this for a while and are agressive riders will agree that the turns away from the sidecar are the ones that will bite you not the ones into the sidecar.....but.... that is another story.
This topic is perhaps one that has generated oh so much discussion. I recall - back when I was just getting the USCA off the ground in Chicago, IL way back in the early mid 1970s and we had just gotten the original sidecar safety training program under way - which, by the way - was the forerunner of ALL the current sidecar safety programs we have today - we even had volunteer sidecar safety classes in I believe it was around eleven different states by the end of the 1970s or early eighties. I would contact the heads of the various state road safety commissions seeking to get support for our volunteer sidecar safety training programs. One head of state of one traffic safety program was still shook up. Most accidents, even severe ones with multiple traffic fatalities, are investigated, then filed away forever after just a week or so. This one was so shocking and horrifying that it remained on this desk almost a year later. It had such an effect on him, and on me also, that it became the cornerstone of our safety training programs from that time and forever.
It seems that this young family - father, mother, and two small sons - were ALL wiped out in an unforgettable accident that was inexplicible. Father was driving this rig - a normal rig - mother was behind him on the pillion or buddy seat, with both sons in the sidecar. They were coming down the hill of a two laner and had entered a sweeping righthander. For no apparant reason they drifted across the centerline and directly into the path of a big semi plowing up the hill. WHY? WHY? WHY?
Since then we find a similar repition - hardly a year goes by without a similar event. One year a few years ago, it seemed that we had a whole rash of such incidents. By now we were into the age of the internet so stories like this were spread more rapidly. As Claude mentioned, there is much controversy surrounding what happens when the sidecar wheel lifts off the ground with a sidecar rig. This should not be. There is a BIG difference between flying the sidecar and just lifting the sidecar wheel as when cornering to the right in a somewhat aggressive style. Flying the sidecar is when the rig is lifted up so very high that the center of gravity is directly over the contact or rollover line between the front wheel and the rear wheel of the bike. When in driven in this manner the rig behaves as if it is a two wheeler and normal countersteering - there are several words to describe it - apply. It is the very opposite of normal driving. One can drive in a straight line for miles, even curve to the right or to the left while still in the "unstable balance" mode. No biggie. ANY two track machine - such as a car, or a truck, or a SUV, or a PU, or a semi with two trailers, or a cement truck can perform the same stunt - as has been shown on several movies - believe there were scenes in the Terminator - return of the machines - that had several such sequences. And, as been pointed out in prior posts here, is not legal on any public road here or in Canada - in fact is in the same category as a wheelie, or a stoppie. Google those if you are not familiar with such terms - they apply more to two wheel or to four wheelers.
A bike with a sidecar IS an unbalanced two track machine which requires very different driving techniques than either a two wheeler or a four wheeler. There are vastly different turning characteristics to turn safely to right and to the left - unique among all vehicles, including trikes. But every vehicle has its own stabilty level. Add to that your own. All can turn over or slide. Whether it turns over or slides depends on many factors. Each is covered by its own unique set of equations. Predictable and real.
For extreme safety, slow down on right handers. But with practice one can become more confident of going faster. There are many techniques, each with some value, which can be tried by themselves or in combination.
1. Slow down to a safe entry speed.
2. Begin the curve at the centerline, then move over to the inner edge, exiting again towards the road center - ie - straighten out the curve.
3. Grab a bit of the front brake - this keeps the nose of the sidecar down.
4. Grab a bit of throttle - this powers out the rear wheel a bit.
5. Drop down a gear or so and grab lots of throttle - this is a racing manouvre that causes the rear end to slide out.
6. Grab some sidecar wheel brake - this sets the rig up prior to the curve - has no effect once the sidecar wheel leaves the ground.
7. Lean over the sidecar - before the curve - this throws some weight onto the sidecar.
8. Shift weight to right - more effective than 7 - but must be done before curve.
Now - the real world. When on a two wheeler or even a four wheeler, we come to a curve with a posted speed of say - 25 mph. Yea - we are mucho. We see if we can take that curve at 30 or even 35 mph. Ans we smile or grin. YEA! But when we are on a sidecar rig and see that same curve and speed limit it means - SLOW THe hell down. Maybe 20 or even 15 mph might be too fast.
I note several remarks to two laners on country roads with adverse camber and decreasing radius - a nightmare for the sidecarist. Be aware that modern high speed roads and turnpikes are also like that. Built into many exits and entries is a nasty right hander with decreasing radii and with concrete barriers and walls just waiting for you. Slow the hell down. Dangerous even for two or four wheelers.
And read over my books - available at sidecar.com - they were good three and four decardes ago - nothing has changed.
Hal kendall
Don't grab brakes, don't grab throttle, don't grab anything. If you use the brakes, ease them on, ease them off. When you shift your weight, ease it over. Don't chop the throttle, don't grab the throttle. When you pick your line, use smooth steering input. Sudden control input of any kind contributes to lack of control; smooth is your friend, abrupt is not your friend.
The distinction between instructing some one to "grab" the front brake as opposed to "ease on" some front brake is much more important than arguing over when the term "flying the sidecar" can be applied.
Certainly the most important thing to do is to select a safe entry speed. Get your speed off before you enter the corner. Select a speed which you can safely carry through the entire corner. If you are unfamiliar with the road, can't see through the corner or traffic or road conditions present increased hazard, err on the side of caution. Slow down.
The posted speeds for corners are a good indication. That doesn't mean they are absolutes. Conditions, your ability and the vehicle you are driving may allow you to corner considerably faster or may dictate a slower speed through the corner. Just because you are on a sidecar, doesn't mean you have to crawl through the corner at half the posted speed. That doesn't mean drive at 9/10ths-leave yourself a margin. Use your head. Don't freak if the wheel comes up, you are still in full control. The sidecar is still out there, working for you. Drive.
Sidecars are inherently more stable than motorcycles. They require different skills to corner fast and safely. How do you recover when you get into a corner too hot on a sidecar? How do you recover when you get into a corner too hot on a motorcycle or in a car? Sometimes you don't. On a sidecar, use your weight, use your brakes, use the throttle, use the available road to change your line. Take a class, practice, know your vehicle, know your abilities and know the road. Drive accordingly. As with any other type of vehicle, the key is not "how do I get out of trouble" but, rather, "how do I stay out of trouble".
Great posts by Vernon and Hal. One word of caution which I may have mentioend before is.....
Vernon wrote:
"The posted speeds for corners are a good indication."
If you are traveling in different areas or different states be aware that the yellow signs in one area may be different than another area. For instance if a given turn in Pa is posted at say 35 mph that same turn if it was say in W.Va may be posted at 50mph. Judging entry sped by those signs alone can get you in troubel if you and or your rig are not up to the task to over come a sudden pucker factor. Practice practice practice.
If all of this talk is being read by anyone who may be pondering getting into the sidecar world please do not let it alarm you. Well built and well balanced sidecar outfits ARE safe vehicles and ton of fun. These discussions are good things but some can get the wrong impression of the sport we love. Like vernon said ' take a class ' i fpossible. If yopu can't do that then by all means read Hal's books that are free here at sidecar .com and othe rspots on the web. Whether you do one or both of these things then it is still up to you to practice what you have been taught......THAT is the key.
Vernon says:
Take a class, practice, know your vehicle, know your abilities and know the road. Drive accordingly. As with any other type of vehicle, the key is not "how do I get out of trouble" but, rather, "how do I stay out of trouble".
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May I add 2 things I learned back in Germany and over the years here in the high mountain range of Costa Rica:
"Erfahrung kommt von Fahren" => "Experience comes from driving"
(note the same word origin)
Means get on the road riding and by experimenting your refect you train them, and get to know when and how to react.
"Fahre nur so schnell wie weit Du sehen kannst." "Drive only as fast, as far you can see!"
Means If you cannot see what comes up, damn it: Stay off the throttle!
Here I find frequently turns of 100 to 170º with a cliff hiding what comes up and a steep hill down the opposite road side for hundred of meters at 80º (and worse) downwards!!!
Nobody can advice in advance for critical situations, it all comes up to the situation in that moment and your skills!
---
The probably the 2 worst moments on the rig I passed:
A) With 2 passengers under a bridge in a very hard lefty the back passenger staying upright in stead of going down with me => the rider behind told me that nearly my tires came of the rims (in deed the sidecar rim got scars!) That feeling in my butt and stomach is unforgettable.
B) On a crowned wet rural stone paved alley road in a 60º bend a lost sugar root kicked up the sidecar wheel.
I'd never would have been able to recover and get back on my side before the up coming van would have reached me.
So the only solution was to drop harsh the rig, go left and pass drifting between 2 lime trees through the ditch into the ploughed field. (this one faded in my memories because to that time I was well trained. In the face of the van driver you could see that he wouldn't forget that one as easy I did)
All depends on the situation and your skill. As more experience you have as more change you have to master a dangerous situation.
Frequent training to fresh up your skills is the best you can do.
I love to ride frequently off road, because there you are able to test the behaviour of your rig and can train your "butt" senses, muscle force and reflects.
Best wishes to everybody and keep your RESERVES on the safe side!
Sven Peter
What Claude meanwhile stated is valuable to keep in mind everywhere.
For example in North Germany most times the indicated speed limit is valid for a car or solo bike for wet condition and darkness, so no big issue for a rig neither.
In the mountain range in south Germany the indicated speed limit in many areas are even for good dry roads a reasonable UPPER limit at day light for solo bikes and cars. (could reconfirm that in my last vacation back on the other side of the big spit pond a few weeks ago)
Something similar I found in France and Greece too. As more twisty an area roads are, as sportier are the drivers AND the public traffic office engineers!
(By the way: In Costa Rica NEVER trust an MOPT engineer only your own judgement!)
With the rig you should ride only as fast as as far you can see and your skills permit.
Best regards
Sven Peter
Chris says:"apply slight front break and light throttle at the same time while in the turn not before. This slight breaking is supposed to keep the nose of the sidecar down"
Sorry Chris I do not confirm completely. Your statement may apply to a street rig with a grippy car front wheel, and not being too high up the sidecar. Generally the sidecar will even come up faster.
For a tiny toy rig with a solo bike front wheel I may state: => once fighting with steering forces the the wheel will slide and break out => then the only thing to do is WORKING WITH THE WEIGHT AND DRIFT!
=> What again needs practice.
My comment.=> enjoy the gravel roads for training!!!
Sven
