Sidecar Lenny, you are correct! Inspite of all the banter, I think that most of what we DO is the same or vey similar. We have been discussing a couple of details, but Hal, Claude and I seem to agree on the important stuff. I think Hal's big point in the discussion that most recently brought some of the differences to my attention(SCT " Was I Too Hard On Annie?") was that you don't need to climb all over a sidecar to drive one.
I agree. Some sidecars respond well to agressive weight shifting, some barely notice it and you can set up the sidecar to be more stable and/or slow down, if you wish.
As Claude so eloquently catalogued, there is a lot more to good cornering than weight shifting or ballasting your sidecar- entry speed, picking a line that opens the turn, good throttle and brake control, etc. (go back and read Claudes post or check ANY of the manuals we have mentioned) are far more important. I agree, and I am sure Hal does too.
Thinking it through and practice are key to improving ones skill. All this blather is an attempt to figure out a couple of points which may touch on useful tools to add to the box, but should not scare folks off from sidecars. Sidecars are more stable than two wheels, less stable than four(usually;-), not hard to learn to drive and a whole lot of fun.
VW
Originally written by claude #3563 on 3/29/2006 4:18 AM
Aaron,
Last year a friend who was thinking of getting a sidecar was taken for a ride in a sidecar rig. It was a K12RS with a huge Hannigan on it. When they got to the first right hander the driver got off th eseat and almost climbed into the sidecar with her. Thye were not going fast. This rig is a very stable outfit too. She asked th eguy what the heck was he doing and he said that was the proper way to ride a sidecar and she would have to do it too. It was said that those who do not do this had not been trained properly! Needless to say she was not impressed at these gymnastics and ,as some others have stated, was considering that she may not want a hack after all if she HAD to be a gymnist. Later on I took her for a spirited ride in our sidecar and after that spent a day teaching her to ride my rig. She is now planning to have a Hannigan installed on her K11 this spring. Misinformation would have probably run her away from sidecars. This is not the first time we have seen these types of things happen...too bad really.<<<<<<<<<<Claude, I really had a great chuckle with this reply! you really nailed it!
that says it all.
<<<<<<<<"what the H*** you doing?"I'm through commenting on this thread..I think..;o)
Originally written by claude #3563 on 3/28/2006 6:55 PM
(snip...If someone wants to hang off fine. It wil help some on some rigs and more on others. Face it , hanging off is nothing more than moving ballast around (yo butt). There are still limits ...all of the previous stuff is still true whether hanging off or not. The difference is a possible small increase in cornering speed if one hangs off. Getting in trouble is still getting in trouble for the same reasons....difference is you may be getting in trouble at a slightly faster spped. David L. Hough said that people get into troubel because they don't hang off. This is simply not true.(snip)
.
Claude I was rereading your (excellent)post and wanted to touch on something you mention in the bit quoted here.
There is more to shifting weight than just increasing your cornering speed. On rigs were it makes a significant difference, it also increases your stability and control, even if you do not increase your speed. We have been talking about using it as a technique for turning right. Actually we teach that it should be used for left turns as well. It can be particularly useful with rigs that are overballasted or carrying too much weight in the sidecar when turning left. It can indeed keep you out of trouble and is not just a means of increasing cornering speed.
So to sum it all up...(please correct me if I'm wrong)
We all agree that "steering revision" does not happen the moment the sidecar wheel leaves the ground-if at all.
We all agree that "hanging off"-moving weight around- can be a usefull technique for both left and right turns.
We all agree that there are MANY variables that affect when/where/if this technique is applicable.
Can we all agree that this is a usefull skill?
Can we all agree that it should be taught as "one of the many tools"?
ie- not needed all the time, but should be learned and practiced just like everything else.
(un-permited parade activities deleted by a-ron)
Cheers-
Aaron
Aaron - you've just gotta be kidding - right? To actually advocate on a public forum a dangerous and illegal practice that you know will bring you a ticket in every state in the union - known as dangerous driving or its equivalent - like popping a wheelie, and it is even banned on public parking lots - only permitted in private areas and with the owners permission. We have been over this again and again. It has absolutely no place on a public road and has absolute nothing to do with any known safty manouvre. It has been done in the past, legitimately, by certain USCA members, who have obtained a permit to do so, and have been part of an official public parade - like at easter or thanksgiving. Under these circumstances you would be doing a credit to yourself and to sidecarists in general. Otherwise no. We have a duty to newbies reading these posts.
There are circumstances where hanging off is NOT desirable - you keep forgetting the impaired and the handicapped. It is NOT essential. Do not ever make it so. It is just another tool that can be used by some who choose to use it. There are others who do not wish to use it. Never force your style of driving on them just because you think it is cool! Good folks have been forced out of sidecaring just because of such attitudes. That is not our intent. Never was.
Steering reversion happens when the rig begins to behave as a solo or as a two wheeler - ie - when it is a lopsided but fully balanced machine with the center of gravity over the tipover line. There is no other way to describe this. Forget all about what happens when the sidecar wheel just leaves the ground. That is pure hokey from a dreamscape. Get into the real world.
Originally written by hal77079 on 3/29/2006 8:32 AM
To actually advocate on a public forum a dangerous and illegal practice that you know will bring you a ticket in every state in the union - known as dangerous driving or its equivalent We have a duty to newbies reading these posts."
>>>OK-I have edited my posts. I was not telling anyone they had to do this. Did you actually read my post? Get a grip. Life is a parade.
Originally written by hal77079 on 3/29/2006 8:32 AM
There are circumstances where hanging off is NOT desirable - you keep forgetting the impaired and the handicapped. It is NOT essential. Do not ever make it so. It is just another tool that can be used by some who choose to use it. There are others who do not wish to use it. Never force your style of driving on them just because you think it is cool! Good folks have been forced out of sidecaring just because of such attitudes. That is not our intent. Never was.
>>>AGAIN. DID YOU ACTUALLY READ MY POST?? Are you just so arrogant to believe that by teaching something as one of the many tools that CAN be used when appropriate would hurt someone??? I HAVE NEVER SAID A PERSON HAD TO HANG OFF ALL THE TIME!!!!!
YOU are the only one who seems to think this. YOU are the only one that seems to think you need to force your driving style on others. You are the one who seems to think your rants are usefull. I have spoken to many people that stop reading both this and the yahoo site because they are sick of it. Besides- you agreed with me:
Originally written by hal77079 on 3/29/2006 8:32 AM
"It is just another tool that can be used by some who choose to use it."
Umm...isn't that what I said?
Originally written by hal77079 on 3/29/2006 8:32 AM
Steering reversion happens when the rig begins to behave as a solo or as a two wheeler - ie - when it is a lopsided but fully balanced machine with the center of gravity over the tipover line. There is no other way to describe this. Forget all about what happens when the sidecar wheel just leaves the ground. That is pure hokey from a dreamscape. Get into the real world.
AGAIN I ask if you even read my post. Besides- you seem to think that having the sidecar wheel off the ground is WAY too dangerous to ever let happen, so why do you care so much about "steering revision"?
You insult me, I insult you. You do disrespect to your own position when resorting to cheap insults. Be polite- I'm sure everyone would appreciate it.
Aaron
Aaron - settle down and take a spell.
Have I ever driven a rig with the chair lifted? Of course. Guess you have never read the Sheep Diaries. The practice you describe is an unlawful peactice. Just ask any traffic officer. Why would you want to get your sidecar buddies in a tizzie with the law. Yes, I did read your post. However, I do not go back and re-read the corrections.
I haver ALWAYS maintained that there are many driving styles and that you must choose which is best for you and your rig. On that I have never wavered. Please do not keep trying to put words into my mouth - not really becoming.
I never invented the term steering reversion as it is applied to sidecars. That honor belongs to David Hough. It has created more confusion in the sidecar world than anything else I can think of. Wish it would go away forever. But it will not. Maybe we can bury it deep. Can we agree on that?
Just where did you ever get such a preposterous concept that I believe that having the sidecar wheel off the ground is way too dangerous to ever let it happen? From this statement alone it would appear that contrary to your previous statements that you have never read ANY of my posts, or if you did, you failed to understand them. So it is no need to continue here. You just pick out a few words here and there and rant on. Bye.
a-ron,
My replies to your post are below in the <<>> marks.
So to sum it all up...(please correct me if I'm wrong)
A-RON WROTE:
We all agree that "steering revision" does not happen the moment the sidecar wheel leaves the ground-if at all.
>>> Can't really speak fo 'all' but it is true that steering reversion does not happen as soon as th esidecar wheel leaves the ground.<<>> Agree... Hanging off Can be a decent tool to have but should not be taught as being essential to riding a sidecar rig safely and smartly. The statements previously quoted that were made by Davvid L. Hough are totally wrong<> Agree<> Useful but not essential<>One of many tools ..okay..but not with great emophasis<> ie...maybe and maybe not..To me it is not a huge deal either way. Road position, how to enter and exit a turn etc etc are far more important<>Not real sure what this means...no biggie.:-) )
Cheers-
>>Cheers<>
Hal,
still on the topic of cornering sidecars and teaching driving skills, but to stray a bit from the dead horses we have been flogging- I would really value your help with the following:
We have students sit on the bike, with a spotter available to prevent a spill, and tip the bike up to the balance point. This gives them a feel for what it is like before and after they reach that point. The static balance point for most rigs is actually fairly high- the sidecar wheel can be 3' off the ground, the left drivers peg dragging.
In actual practice, as the wheel lifts in a turn, the balance point is lower, correct? It moves down depending on the speed and the sharpness of the turn.
Can you, with your flair for numbers(something, I confess, which does not come easily to me) calculate for a given rig, traveling a given path, how far down the balance point moves, related to incremental increases of speed?
Pick a rig, something common like a Ural would be most helpful, and a speed and a circle and come up with the numbers? I would be most grateful. This has nothing to do with the previous dialogue-it relates to a question I was asked in class.
Thanking you in advance,
VW
Originally written by RedMenace on 3/29/2006 2:40 PM
Hal,
still on the topic of cornering sidecars and teaching driving skills, but to stray a bit from the dead horses we have been flogging- I would really value your help with the following:We have students sit on the bike, with a spotter available to prevent a spill, and tip the bike up to the balance point. This gives them a feel for what it is like before and after they reach that point. The static balance point for most rigs is actually fairly high- the sidecar wheel can be 3' off the ground, the left drivers peg dragging.
In actual practice, as the wheel lifts in a turn, the balance point is lower, correct? It moves down depending on the speed and the sharpness of the turn.
Can you, with your flair for numbers(something, I confess, which does not come easily to me) calculate for a given rig, traveling a given path, how far down the balance point moves, related to incremental increases of speed?
Pick a rig, something common like a Ural would be most helpful, and a speed and a circle and come up with the numbers? I would be most grateful. This has nothing to do with the previous dialogue-it relates to a question I was asked in class.Thanking you in advance,
VW
=======================================================================
Just got in and saw your post Vernon. The question you asked probably makes more sense than most all of what we have discussed here in many ways. I really don't think there is a straight or single definative answer to it but we will see what Hal says.
When you wrote: "In actual practice, as the wheel lifts in a turn, the balance point is lower, correct? It moves down depending on the speed and the sharpness of the turn." you opened a whole new can of worms. Now we could get into suspension dynamics, roll centers, roll couple etc. When we were mentioning stuf earlier we pretty much agreed that a lot depended on the rig one was on. This is still true in light of your question and statment. I don't think 'balance point' is really a correct term but no matter. What you said is true and very seldom considered in these discussions. Yes, the so called 'balance point' will change in action with speed and the cornering forces at hand. Static tests are nice and they are useful but they will never tell the whole story of how a given rig will react under various conditions. This can only be done by the seat of the pants when in motion.
Sometime we should talk about swaybars and what they do to the cornering equation.
Roll center height is also a huge topic that can blow your mind. My K 100 with an open platform on it has been spun out in right handers with the swaybar unhooked and the sidecar wheel barely left the ground if it did at all. No, it did not have a stock suspension. Don't try this on a normally set up rig!! LOL.
I will shut up now. (and everyone said 'good')
About 11 years ago I was riding shotgun in David Hough's /7 R100/URAL rig.
We were leading a group of tyro sidecarists to a Range in Yakima, WA for an impromptu training session during a Rally.
After a while David said: "I guess I'd better start hanging off since I've told these people that hanging off is essential to good sidecar handling and they're behind us watching".
I asked him if he wanted me to lean in the turns too for effect. LOL
Lonnie
Yep- a lot of variables. For my purposes we can just pick a simple common rig, like a Ural, that does lift. Just looking for an example of what happens with speed to the balance or tipover point, both for my own clarification and to illustrate this in class discussions. Don't need to get into suspension or
track width variations-just looking for what happens with an increase in speed, leaving the corner as a constant, the rig as a constant, leaving out questions of weight shifting-just trying to look at this one issue. I am hoping Hal might be able to calculate the change for me...
The other stuff is interesting, particularly (anti)sway bars and suspension mods. Would love to talk with you in person some time about this stuff. I feel there is a whole bunch I could learn about it.
WHOA! Who ever came up with the notion that the balance point had anything to do with speed? Again, you are mixing apples and oranges.
There are some things you can calculate, and others you cannot. Easily.
Re the balance point - that is a static value. It's determination is predetermined upon certain assumptions such as there is no acceleration forces, there are no slip forces, there nothing other than a steady state on a flat road. But it is a very real determination for the assumptions given. And it is effective for the specific rig, its weight, the driver, his weight, the CoG and where it is located, the wheelbase, and the track. So it automatically compensates for the speed, and the radius of the turn, and you can even account for the effect of superelevation. So it is fairly accurate.
However, if Claude or Vern ever get on the road, they will be pouring on the throttle, and/or braking the front wheel - which are real biggies and cannot be put into the simple equation. Of course, if Vern ever gives me how much he climbs out over the sidecar - that I can factor in because that is a static value - the other values I cannot - as long as he does it BEFORE he begins the turn and not after he has already lifted his sidecar wheel.
Equations have been developed for these complex equations for racing drivers by the pros but these require big computer power to solve, not the simple calculations I have. You get into deep intregral calculus and differential equations in one helluva hurry and I left my major math skills behind in 1962. Yea - I had 92 hours of post graduate math from the University of Pittsburgh - but unless you keep your skills continually honed to a fine degree you lose them very quickly. Not like riding a bicycle or a sidecar outfit.
In the real world I agree that it would be entirely possible for the "dynamic balance point" to be lower - but this is due to the other factors I mentioned - such as the acceleration forces of the rear wheel, the possible slippage of the rear wheel, the braking force of the front wheel, and so on. These then become extremely powerful forces just exactly as Claude has always suspected and are the reason that he is damn near impossible to keep up with in the twisties. It is the intelligent application of these forces, and the looking through the curve plus the straightening of these curves to just make them make them go away.
Newbies should wonder at how Claude pilots his rig - then, if they are serious about bettering their performance, watch him closely, if they can.
OK. What i am looking at is the point where steering reversion does occur. We talk about this happening at the balance point- obviously a static balance point is not what we are speaking of, I am not sure what term you would rather use.
Regardless, what I am looking for is an illustration of how speed affects the point where this happens. Can you help me with this?
O
As long as you are talking about a true balance point, then it is totally independant of speed. It is simply obtained when the center of gravity lies directly over the tip-over line between the front and the rear wheel. Period. Nothing more complicated. That is how Hough defines it. Here I do agree with him. As do all books on science and physics. And they go back 100 years or more.
As for turning to the left it is also the same except that the tipover line is now between the front wheel and the sidecar wheel. Again, it occurs when the CoG lies over THAT tipover line.
Hough insists on adding a third - betwen the sidecar wheel and the rear wheel. We normally do not. This had a real validity when they had rear-cars back around 1900 to 1910. These rear-cars were subject to falling over backwards when they went up a steep hill with a person seated on the rear seat. But of course, the 3-wheeled ATV, banned by the Feds in the 1980s, also fell over backwards when kids rode on the rear and they went up steep hills. You cannot go contrary to mother nature.
These tipover lines and these balance points are real. All of them.
