Spoke again to a fellow who has forgotten more about motorcycles and sidecars than we will ever know. He said that the use of the 15" tire has gone on for many years. The 1/8" difference is not significant enough to prevent the use. It is true for all tires both motorcycle and car that injuries can occur. He advised good old standard installation procedures be followed. He also said we are lunatics to argue over a subject like this.
Oh well....
Please tell the gentleman to sign in and identify himself. If not, where can he be contacted. I would be most interested in talking with someone with lots of experience. My bike uses a 15" rim. I'm open to new ideas once I'm convinced. I'm not convinced yet.
I would like to know also.
Henry
Originally written by hackellis on 7/9/2006 9:58 AM
Spoke again to a fellow who has forgotten more about motorcycles and sidecars than we will ever know. He said that the use of the 15" tire has gone on for many years. The 1/8" difference is not significant enough to prevent the use. It is true for all tires both motorcycle and car that injuries can occur. He advised good old standard installation procedures be followed. He also said we are lunatics to argue over a subject like this.
Oh well....
Face it with sidecars we are always doing things that are not recomended so to speak. There are only a few motorcycle manufacturers who say it is even okay to put a sidecar on their products. But, in spite of this we do so anyhow. Doing it right from experience and the time proven experience of others makes the systems work. Doing it wrong can result in many problems from frame breakage to bad wobbles etc etc.
So we come down to tires. Yes, car tires are an advantage on a sidecar rig due to their flat tread design. That is pretty much a given. Many have worked on car wheel conversions for sidecar usage which is good.
If we want to get technical on all of this the wheel bead seat designs themselves are different between car tires and bike tires but this fact is typically ignored and we move on.
So...anyhow... at one time we saw a number of car tire failures and even a couple of wheel failures. These instances were related to the 15" wheels/tires and not the other sizes. Some research was done and it was found that the 15" motorcycle wheels specifically were quite a bit larger in the seating area than the motorcycle bead area was. This was felt to be the reason for the failures that were seen. From that point it pretty much became the stance of most in the know that 15" car tires shoudl not be mounted on 15" motorcycle wheels. Has it been done? Yes. Has there been cases where the tire did well with no problems? Yes. But due to the fact that some have failed during mounting and some had been reported to fail after mounting the stance of most all if not all of those who have been around sidecars for many years has been not to mount them for potential saftey reasons. Remember that the other wheel sizes are very close to the auto tire sizes where the 15" ones are not. At least accoring to the tire and wheel manufacturers data.
Bottom line:
We may be called lunitics and that is okay as I would rather be a called a lunitic than to say 'okay do it' to a newbie and see him or her get hurt because they took advice that was questionable.
As far as the statement that said:
"Spoke again to a fellow who has forgotten more about motorcycles and sidecars than we will ever know" I find it interesting that this person's name is not mentioned in your statement. Sure he may be one who is very knowledgeble and all of that but who is this person? I would think that if he is willing to call Hal Kendall and some of the others here lunitics he woudl at least be willing to sign his name by his statement. We are stating our feelings on thsi matter openly and honestly with the best intentions. Too bad we get labeled as lunitics for doing this and the person who is pointing the finger does not have the courtesy to state his name. Do YOU see any problem with this picture my friend?
LUNATIC Claude in Pa.
.
Sounds like that fellow has very little knowledge of tire construction. Tell him to get in touch with the Tire & Rim Association and tell them how little he knows. They measure the rim specifications to 0.001 inch. Also the specifications of the tires are given to 0.001 inch. Is he really that back in the horse and buggy days? You are not nailing shoes on the bottoms of horses hooves for chissake. Example: From page describing the 5 degree drop center rim contour from the Tire & Rim Association Handbook:
15 inch diameter: Rim Diameter: 380.2 mm = 14.968 ins
FH Max Circumference: 1194.4 mm = 47.024 ins
1/8 inch is equal to 0.125 inches = 3.174 mm which is one hell of a BIG chunk of change when we are talking in terms of these very precise measurements. If your tire or your rim was out ob balance by 1/8 of an inch it would be a very very bumpy ride. It would go ba-doom, ba-doom, ba-doom as it bumped down the road. Much like a set of tires that have set for a long long time and have taken a set.
He also knows very little about the steel belts at the rim and how the tires are constructed. He needs to take some basic courses in tire construction and in what happens when a tire with a small ID is stretched over a big rim for which it was not designed to go over. The wires are pulled out of the rubber. The stiction is gone. The rubber expands, the steel does not. The tire may "look" OK. The tire is ruined. It may or may not have exploded.
It is obvious that he does not even understand the basic problem, nor does he want to let go of his ignorant place in the sun. Else he would do some research on topic.
Please let us know when you have some valid information on topic.
Ride safe.
Hal you are a lunatic for sure for posting all of this facts. Geeze man what's wrong with you anyhow? LOL
i used to know a guy that had a cousin whose friend's buddy had a tire or something like that.
fly
I think my wife's step-sister's boyfriend had a live-in boy-friend who knew your friend's buddy - or something like that.
Were they from Afrahoopistan. LA? or from Norcrumbria, VA? LOL.
Hal
=========
Originally written by Fly on 7/9/2006 12:43 PM
i used to know a guy that had a cousin whose friend's buddy had a tire or something like that.
fly
How about we just kill this whole topic until someone comes up with some VERIFIABLE data to dispute the Agency who makes the rules. This back and forth and back and forth only frustrates the people who are actually trying to learn something here.
Originally written by SidecarMike on 7/9/2006 1:55 PM
How about we just kill this whole topic until someone comes up with some VERIFIABLE data to dispute the Agency who makes the rules. This back and forth and back and forth only frustrates the people who are actually trying to learn something here.
Personally, I'm learning a lot here. And I think the threads that get people really fired up are the most interesting reading to boot. And it's relatively easy to sort out the differences between what is factual and what is merely somebody's opinion.
The observation that I get from this thread is the following:
1. People follow the self appointed experts (no matter what the qualifications) blindly. Example this thread.
2. Because someone writes a book does not make them an expert in any way shape or form. Ken Lay's book on ethics.
3. Age or years of experience counts for something? Most people learn what they will on any subject in the first few months and repeat this knowledge over the years.
4. The reluctance to accept or even consider an opposing view. The sign of insecurity.
I do feel sorry for some of you.
Mike
Being one who has no interest in putting a 15" auto tire on a mootorcycle rim, I have no vested interest in this thread. However I have learned four things from the banter presented so far.
1- Russian roulette is safe because several have survived it.
2- Published facts and data from industry professionals are moot and have no bearing on reality.
3- Common sense is for"idiots".
4- Nothing ventured, nothing gained (or lost).
Several years ago I installed a 70X21" Metzeler Marathon on a Harley chrome spoked wheel. After several tries to get it to seat using soap and lubricants with no luck I got frustrated and put it under a pneumatic Handy bike lift and added air pressure till it seated.
At 140 psi it finally popped on the rim and I got 18,000 miles out of that tire. Smart, NO. Did it work, YES. Would I do it again? NO!
Would I recommend doing this? Hell NO!
Ride Safe all,
Lonnie
Northwest Sidecar
We are still waiting, patiently, for someone, anyone, who will provide a step by step play on how to mount a 15 inch auto tire onto a 15 inch stock MC rim and not exceed the manufacturs maximum stated pressure, together with a verifiable name and address of who has done this and who will guarantee this and will do this for anyone else. Name, address, phone number, fax, e-mail. We are getting tired of this cat and the mouse game where some one will throw out a tit bit and see who will bite, then run off shreiking to the hills. Either put up oe shut up. So far, not a single one has stood up and met the test.
On the other hand, I talked to several auto tire shops yesterday. Each said - not on my watch. If a sidecarist came in and asked me to fit an auto tire onto his MC rim - no way. Where is that shop you said would do that?
You can say what you want but when I was in the military 1962-1972 we use to use tire irons to remove and install tires.Some were so missed sized that we split the rubber to the belt then overlowed the trucks by 50% and went. I never saw any fail!!
Henry
Mike wrote:
The observation that I get from this thread is the following:
1. People follow the self appointed experts (no matter what the qualifications) blindly. Example this thread.
Response:YOU did just that
Mike wrote:
2. Because someone writes a book does not make them an expert in any way shape or form. Ken Lay's book on ethics.
Response:
True no doubt ..and what is your point?
Mike wrote:
3. Age or years of experience counts for something? Most people learn what they will on any subject in the first few months and repeat this knowledge over the years.
Response:
'Learned' does not make it right. We are all apt to learn wrong.
Mike wrote:
4. The reluctance to accept or even consider an opposing view. The sign of insecurity.
Response:
I think everyone here has said something close to th efact that they may be willing to accept a change if th eperson who you have been talking to will let us know who he is. If he is right I have even said it would be good. But....right now he is the one who has spoken of all of us as lunitic. Now you tell me who is not willing to acept an oposing view.
Mike wrote:
I do feel sorry for some of you.
Response:
Too bad you feel that way. I do not feel sorry for you. You have made a stand against what is the common advice in the majority of the sidecar world and are , I think, willing to live with that. That is fine.. no problem and we hope it works out for you.
What has been said here , as stated before, has been said with good intentions. I only wish this mystry sidecar and tire guru you speak of would be named. Hey, maybe he is right but it is hard to add credibility to a statment made by a mystry person on the net.
For the record many of us here disagree on variosu things from time to time. That is not the issue. I have been wrong many times and will be wrong again in the future. Hal and I have disagreed on some things and sometime he was right and sometimes he was not. So what, that means nothing.
Personally I dont really care if you put a 13" tire on a 19" rim if it works for you and you are willing to accept the consequesnces if it doesn't then fine. But if someone reaidng this forum takes your advice against what has been the basically proven stance for so long with no backup on your side it may be you who has to bear the consequences then too. That is the probelm in a nutshell don't you think?
Claude
Mike
