Built My Own

You've got a cute rig there. Quite original.
The workmanship looks real good. The engineering looks a little iffy in some areas. Larger structural tubing would be a plus. As would upper strut(s) triangulation.
I would be concerned about the lack of lateral support for the sidecar axle. It would seem that the sideloading that occurs, especially in a left turn will push the axle/wheel assembly against the sidecar frame and even bend the frame tubes and/or the axle support plates.
I guess time and usage will tell.

Good luck with your project,

Lonnie
Northwest Sidecars

How do you adjust toe-in?

how can I see the album? What do I need to click on?

EDIT--I found it.
OK, let me apologize in advance, because I'm goign to point out things that I don't like about yoru rig, and I don't want you to take it as a personal attack. Sorry.

1. You have a biek with a suspension and a sidecar without suspension. EEww. thats like installing rigid struts on the right side of your pick up truck and leaving the shocks on the left. When the sidecar wheel hits a bump it will make therig change direction left for bumps, adn to the right for holes.

2. You have no adjustment for lean out, nor pivot point to add it. Its going to pull the the right very VERY hard.

3. You have no adjustment for toe-in. Tire life is goig to be VERY bad.

4. the lower front mount and the lower rear mount are WAY too close together, the sidecar is acting as a lever, the farther you get the front and the rear mount from each other the better. It takes away the mechanical advantage that the car has against the bike.

5. From the photos the sidecar wheel looks to be too far back. It is not a trike. The sidecar wheel needs to be forward from the bikes rear wheel by 10 inches to a foot. More on longer bikes, less on shorter bikes, but never straight across from the bikes rear wheel.

Again, I apologise as I do not want it to come across that I'm just ripping apart your effort here. The body loooks GREAT and I think the chassis is stout enough if you added corner bracing so that you could put upright arms in place to take some of the forces when you go around corners.

Please look through the previous posts Daveg. As lunitic saiod none of us want to sound like we are being critical but you will have some issues. Please please take what the ramblings below say seriously and in a good spirit. Hope you can do so anyhow.

As far as a rigid suspension goes that may or may not be a problem. Being rigid will tranfer all of the road shocks straight through the sidecar frame and into the mounts and the on to bike frame. This is not bad if all is built to take it. Your mounts are not and the size of your frame tubes as well as the sidecar wheel mounting is questionable too. Short test runs will not prove much as fatigue takes time.

The reason many prefer larger tubing is not only for torsional strength but als to give more welding surface for whatever needs to be attached to it. I mentioned space frames before and that is always an option if smaller tubing is t be used.

Failures that happen right away are one thing but the unexpected ones that come over time are the ones that can kill you after they creep up on you.

Yes, you will need some upper struts. You also need to get rid of the u bolts and at least get some hefty ones . The types that are made for u joints are pretty good , come in various sizes and can be had at an auto parts supply. They have a flat place on the 'u' where it will go around your frame. Still no guarantees. Note that lean adjustment isn't going to happen very well without soem modifications.

Lean out means how much the bike leans away from the sidecar. Lean in is the opposite. To make a rig run straight down the road you lean the bike left to go left (get rid of a pulll to the right) and visa versa. This is an important adjustment. This is where lower mounts that can pivot and be re tightend and upper struts come in. Lengthen struts to lean ou tthe bike etc.. Note that the upper struts are also very important to make whole assembly into a one piece assembly when all is tightened down.

Wheel lead is how far the sidecar wheel is in front of the bike rear wheel. 10" or so is common. The more lead the more stability in left handers as it helps to keep the sidecar nose from dipping down. This shoudl be adjustable but it isn;t nececessary if you can still adjust lean out and toe in.

I do like what you did with the body. Fun ain't it. I just built a small one using 20 ga sheet metal. Plan to do some more later on with probably 18ga. Have done some in aluminum also.

Gotta hand it to you though. What you built with some modifications can be something to be proud of. I was always a homegrown type guy and even though we are now etching out a living doing this stuff today and have learned a lot over the years my respect for someone like yourself who is not afraid to tackle a job is large. I can only hope that you heed the advice given as being in your favor as it is important. DON'T give up...go for it.

Lonnie wrote:
>>I would be concerned about the lack of lateral support for the sidecar axle. It would seem that the sideloading that occurs, especially in a left turn will push the axle/wheel assembly against the sidecar frame and even bend the frame tubes and/or the axle support plates.<<

Even if things do not visably bend right away conering forces will probably allow flex in that area which will reak havoc with setup as well as create concerns about fatigue.
Note that nothing is ever any stronger than it's weakest point. When one area is beefed up another can be a problem. All needs to be worked out as a whole assembly.

I got to pondering the lack of suspension and how that will affect the lean out. I was wrong. Since it has no suspension when he sits on the bike and the bikes suspension compresses THEN it will have lean out. OH, it won't be the right amount of lean out, but at least there will be Some. Better idea would be to put eyelets between the bike and the hack to allow the bike to pivot away from the hack a bit. And add upright arms to high points on the bikes chassis.

Originally written by Lunatic on 12/16/2007 6:13 PM

I got to pondering the lack of suspension and how that will affect the lean out. I was wrong. Since it has no suspension when he sits on the bike and the bikes suspension compresses THEN it will have lean out. OH, it won't be the right amount of lean out, but at least there will be Some. Better idea would be to put eyelets between the bike and the hack to allow the bike to pivot away from the hack a bit. And add upright arms to high points on the bikes chassis.

Harley sidecars due to rigid suspension are the same way. Some run with static lean in some static lean out and I suppose some straight up. It is the handling in the end that counts.

Hey Guys, thanks for the input, appreciate all the knowledge, the more I drive the hack around the more I see the looming problems, since I have never run one around it takes a bit of time to get the feel for it and how it could and should be better and safer for all involved, plan on beefing up the frame and mounts also designing a suspension system, plan on making it an on going project, something to keep me out of trouble in my spare time, has anyone heard of a castering wheel for a sidecar, wouldn't have to worry about toe-in maybe, or does the toe-in help in keeping it going straight? anyway thanks again, will keep an ear out on your feed back, daveg

Dave wrote:
>>.....has anyone heard of a castering wheel for a sidecar, wouldn't have to worry about toe-in maybe, or does the toe-in help in keeping it going straight? anyway thanks again, will keep an ear out on your feed back, daveg<<<

Good to see your post Dave! Yes, 'POP' Dryer experimented with a caster
wheel on a sidecar years ago. Greg Tenbrooke still has one or so today I think. (Greg you reading this???). They never really got popular and if you think it out would have some issues related to them. (Backing up would be one).
I did do a rig last year where the toe in was adjustable at the sidecar wheel. That worked well.
Some feel that toe in is a huge thing as far as keeping the rig running straight. Actually lean out is THE main thing whereas toe in does have a hand in it. Toe in will keep the rig from being twitchy to a certain degree and also preload everything. It is possible to be running far too much toe in and not be aware of it except for grinding the tires off the rig quickly (Usually the rear tire of the bike but not always). We usually go for 1/2" to 3/4" toe in.
One way to beef up[ yopur frame woudl be to dupicate it right below what you have with th esame material. Then you would have a 1" x 2" frame which would be pleanty I think. You coudl also space the new pieces down from th epresent ones an inch with small pieces cut from the same stock or even round stock for a cooler look. Just thinking out loud here 🙂
Note that Hal Kendall's books are a good source for info on sidecars. There is a link to them in my signature bepow.Click on link about training.
Keep posting Dave you will do fine and are a thinker.,..

Awesome effort! I think I'm most impressed with your "shop". If you follow all the previous advice, you will have a lot of safe fun. Keep it up.

You might consider your mounts in two parts: That which bolts to the bike frame( a "subframe") and that which mates to this but is part of the sidecar chassis.

leaving aside questions of material strength, you could modify your existing mounts by using hiem joints for the lower connections, which would allow you to adjust lean out, and to some extent toe in. you still need to make some top mounts, but threaded struts and eyes are easy to come by and not too hard to figure out.

Consider replacing the u bolts with welded tabs you can bolt to solid parts of the bike frame. Motor mounts and Centerstand pivots are often good attachment points. Avoid footpeg hangers, crashbars and the like.
If you look at the build pix for my Suzukis, you can get an idea what I mean.

http://adventuresidecar.com/ASSFLEET/assfleet3.htm

I had to rework this design several times because the mounts flexed. You will note I used the passenger foot peg hanger as the top rear mount, even though I know better. I had hoped since they were welded tube and stronger than most footpeg hangersthey would take the stress. They were not up to it, and flexed. I replaced this mount with a clamp around the frame tube. I also had to modify the top front mount and add a lateral brace and additionaL mounting points to the subframe before I got rid of the flex. Don't be discouraged, but do keep working on it. Anything questionable will fail in use- the stresses are huge!

Vernon wrote:
>>you still need to make some top mounts, but threaded struts and eyes are easy to come by and not too hard to figure out.<<

Okay I haven't used these but if you look at a farm supply place or tractor supply you will find sOME pretty hefty items that to a sidecarist may look like upper struts. These may be made for a three point hitch or whatever. They are massive, not that expensive and have left and right hand threads on them with jam nuts. Look around. No guarantees and all disclaimers apply.
If you try something and it don't work out you made the decision and can take the blame or if it does work the glory for it.
Ain't sidecaring fun?

Originally written by claude #3563 on 12/17/2007 4:38 PM

Vernon wrote:
>>you still need to make some top mounts, but threaded struts and eyes are easy to come by and not too hard to figure out.<<

Okay I haven't used these but if you look at a farm supply place or tractor supply you will find sOME pretty hefty items that to a sidecarist may look like upper struts. These may be made for a three point hitch or whatever. They are massive, not that expensive and have left and right hand threads on them with jam nuts.

Claude, I used one of those to lower and make a rigid out of a 920 Virago some years back and we've used them in pairs to lower Sportsters for a couple of guys wanting the whole "chopper" thing. You're right, they are stout, adjustable, and cheap. I've thought of trying to make a couple of upper mounts for my rig out of them for their adjustability.

Never checked to see how 'sloppy' they were but sure may be worth checking into. Some of them have a spherical ball end of sorts on the ends and that may need to be made solid. Whatever. Making do can be fun if it is safe , secure and doable.
Geez I guess I am nuts ..trying to run a sidecar business and pushing the tractor suppy stuff...lol. Hmmm guess we could repackage that stuff, up the price and supply a fancy decal to make everyone think they really got something special huh? Naaa .