Toe in and Degrees of lean...?

Toe in can be done a number of ways. The easiest is to tie a length of string about 4 inches up from the floor, between two jack stands, one in front of the bike and one behind. Now move them toward the bike until the string lays flush against the rear brake rotor but barely touching it. Now do the same with the sidecar tire, another piece of string, and two more jack stands. It's best not to do it against the tire, but sometimes you can stick a couple magnets on the rim, front and rear, and touch the string lightly to both. Now measure the distance between the two strings both behind the bike and in front of it.
For lean out, I have a magnetic protractor that sticks to the rotor, but most people just stand a carpenter's square along side of the rotor and adjust the lean so that when the top of the rotor touches the square there is about 1/8" of clearence between the bottom of the rotor and the square.
Remember, this is not rocket science. All these measurements do is get you close. Now you have to ride it and adjust for your roads and riding style. When it feels right going down the road, you are done. Now, set everything up and measure again. These will be the numbers you want to write down and repeat next time. What feels good for you will be altogether different for somebody else or even just someplace else.
As an example, Minnesota tends to build a much higher crown in their state and county roads than Wisconsin does. If you set your bike up to run true and straight on Wisconsin back roads, you'll have a tendency to pull right on Minnesota's.

A magnetic angle guage is less expensive than a Framing square and front wheels may be 16" to 21" plus the tire. This will null the 1/8" figure for most. Flat floor and a Loaded rig, I go for around 1 degree plus or minus lean-out with the guage.
Toe-in needed depends somewhat on the track width and wheelbase of your rig.
Toe-in amounts and methods stated on this site also vary immensely. I measure from wheel center below the front and below the rear axle of the bike to a 1"x1" square tube standard aligned with the outside of the sidecar wheel. On a unknown combo I'll start at 1/2" positive toe-in for a single wide and 1" for a double wide. This has worked well for an initial setting. Tweaking comes later after reading tire wear patterns..
Some measure from the ends of an 8' 2x4. Some measure from in front of and behind the bike. It's all fairly arbitrary.
Sidecar manufacturers also give suggested toe-in figures but the questions remain: Which bike is being used for these measurements ? What is the wheelbase ? What is the overall length ? How far apart are the bike and sidecar ? What is the track width?
Bottom line is that you want adequate toe-in for proper handling and minimal tire wear with the loads and operating on the roads you travel most.
Same applies to lean-out: Where do you ride ? Back roads that are highly crowned for runoff or the Superslab ? More lean-out for the cambered roads and less for the freeways.

Lonnie

I use two straight edges propped up on a stack of blocks to hit the sidecar tire and the rear tire in two places on the sidewall. Set the front wheel dead ahead. Since my back tire is significantly wider than the front I just set the edge up straight on the back tire and ignored the front. I measured across just behind the rear wheel and just in front of the front wheel. Where you measure isn't too important as long as you do it the same way each time. It becomes important when you are discussing your measurements with someone else, so you aren't comparing apples and oranges.

To measure lean out I sit on the bike, with the bars dead ahead and drop a tape straight down from the handle bar tips; the inside bar should be higher than the outside(left handlebar) tip. Again how you do it isn't as important as doing it the same way every time, so you can make sense of any changes you make. What is important is how it handles and how the tires wear. One other thing: I much prefer to set the lean out with the bike and sidecar loaded for normal use. These dimensions change as the suspension gets compressed by the driver and the sidecar passenger. You can set it up textbook perfect and it won't mean a thing if the bike drops an inch or two when you sit on it and tips further to the left.

After you set your leanout, recheck your toe in. Depending on how your lower mounts are attached, lean out can change both the toe in and the camber of the sidecar wheel(which I prefer to be vertical, no camber).

It is fussy( I spent all day Saturday on one bike and all day yesterday setting up another), but not difficult. The real proof is not the numbers but how it rides.
These photos show the tools in use: tape measure and straight edges, a level to check the sidecar attitude fore and aft and a big hammer for fine adjustments. Also shown is the large rusty square I used to check the sidecar wheel camber.

Hi Rob: You can check toe-in using long fluorescent light bulbs--they're very straight and light weight. But be careful with them, obviously.

For lean-out/in you can find a flat surface, e.g., brake rotor. you can drop a plumb and compare that to a measurement made to the floor with a straight-edge. You can figure out the angle using trig:

Remember this one?

Sally Can't Tell Oscar/Has A/Hang Over/Again!

Sine, cosine, tangent: O/H, A/H, O/A

So, the plumb distance divided by the straight-edge distance is the Adjacent divided by the Hypotenuse or the cosine. You can either go to a table to find the angle or find the angle using cosine^(-1) on a calculator.

Rich

Hey Rich,Neat, I'll try the tube trick... I sucked at trig ...I have had many reasons to use it since so I'm getting better. Thanks for that.Well I think I have found the rig... A '99 EV with an '04 Velorex 565 color matched to the Gray/Black Guzzi however, I already have plans to sell the 565. We (Sue and I) want to be able to haul the Grandson around and she will sit with him in a dual seat car. Buying the complete outfit still made sense as I did not want to dedicate the '04 EV to hack duty, I want one to remain the tug and not remove the car. We will just change the hack to a dual, probably Jay's Kenna two up model. I was chasing a Friendship III but can't seem to put the deal together.Did you do any fork mods to the Jackal to add the Texas Sidecar...? I'm thinking the Unit LL but not this year... or machine the EV trees to change the trail... I need to talk to the right folks about that though and then only do it over the Winter... ;)I'll post a couple of photos tomorrow...Thanks for your input these past few weeks also Rich.Rob

Trig? I don't need no stinking trig! I have a cheap magnetic angle guage.

See: We've gone from low tech easy (See Vernons 4# Russian micrometer and angle irons) to string, flourescent tubes and heading toward rocket science.
I think I'll stay on the low tech end.

If it tracks well and there's minimal tire wear, you're spot on. However you do it. See ya on the road.

Like I say: "I'm no engineer but I've been on a lot of freight trains".

LOLing,

Lonnie

No doubt, the proof is in the driving/handling.

I don't pretend to be an expert on sidecars or mounting them, but I did find out or figure out ways to do some things re mounting. Basically, with trig, you'll find that the distance between a plumb line from the top of the Guzzi EV wheel and a line that follows the angle of the rotor (and intersects the plumb line at the top of the wheel) should be somewhere between 0.65 to 0.75 in (that's about a 2 deg lean).

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18" | (not to scale)
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- 0.7"

Rob--I didn't get the LL forks or make any mods to the 3-tree. Frankly, while I'm sure either would be an improvement, I think the Hackal handles reasonably well without any mods (other than tightening the steering head bearings and the steering dampner).

Good decision, I think to have separate 2 and 3 wheelers.

Rich

Maybe we can get Lunatic to chime in, He split a Vel down the middle and made a two seater out of it.

Look at the pictures that Tom Reardon (correction,Vernon Wade) provided. Angle iron and rebar on wooden blocks work just fine as long as you pay attention to everything touching just right before measuring. The sag in the rebar does no harm if the pavement is about level. Like stated in the other posts, the initial alignment just gets you in the ball park. Final adjustments happen after road time.
Sidecars appeal to a wide range of humanity. Some have math skills and some don't (me). Some go high tech., and some are happy to cobble something together out of scrap. Whatever makes you happy is the way to go.

By the way Tom, who made those wind swept entry gates at the end of your driveway.

I have no idea what you're talking about! Either I've completely lost it or you're thinking of someone else...

My bad. It was Vernon Wade(Red Menace) that posted the photos. I redirect my question to Vernon. Who made those windswept entry gates at the end of your driveway?

Whew! That was close. Lots of people think I've lost my mind but that was as close as I ever came to thinking so myself. Thanks for the rescue Mark. All those years on the SAR crew paid off... By the way, I was on SAR in Grant Co. for a few years.

OK, back to toe in and what not...

Help I am lost here.........I have a 1983 harley with matching sidecar, it is a matched set from day 1. I am told that these sets ride better than mix matched sets. I haven't had the sidecar on yet but need to so I can ride again after having breast cancer and my left arm is weaker now and afraid I can't hold the bike up anymore for 2 wheel riding. I need someone to tell me how to connect them as I don't have the booklet. Thank you for your time......Linda

Originally written by Mark in Idaho on 4/12/2006 1:43 PM

My bad. It was Vernon Wade(Red Menace) that posted the photos. I redirect my question to Vernon. Who made those windswept entry gates at the end of your driveway?

These gates?

That was a project of mine- I built them last year, after a delivery truck took out the farm gates i used to have there

VW