Car rim conversions.

Harry Tarzain (814) 349-2414 in Pennsylvania, USA (Eastern time zone). I don't have an email address. I have one of his wheels on my GL1100. Cost around $700 US. Uses a 15" tire, and the rim is 4" wide. I currently use a 145-15, but I'm working on fitting a 165-15 tire on it. I have drive shaft clearance issues, and am making a shim. Chain drive, should not be such a big problem as with a drive shaft. Not sure how your hub will be converted. Mine used the original equipment comstar style Honda hub to fit onto his rim.

Harry is not online. He has done a couple of Bandit wheels and has the bugs worked out of them.

Thats encouraging to hear as its a Bandit that I want to convert. However I'm in the UK so sourcing a custom made hub from the USA would be prohibitively expensive. I was really looking for some sketches or photos of something that had already been proven to work so that I could pinch the concept and then go to a local workshop with my own drawings.

I've had a good look through the USCA photo album, as well as elsewhere, and have so far turned up a blank when looking for a bike with this type of conversion on it.

Harry's wheels are composite wheels - I've got one of his rear wheel setups on my Bandit, which i bought in '04. My version is one of the earlier ones, using a '92 GSXR600 hub assembly. Harry takes the rim as supplied, and basically machines away everything attached to the hub (spokes, rim etc) The hub is then jigged up and a centerline wheel blank is positioned and welded onto the motorcycle hub. Requires very precise machine work and welding to get everything trued up as it should be.

Harry did do a good job at the wheel - but I've had bearing issues with it since - my theory is that the centripedal forces of the heavy wheel assembly has basically overwhelmed the bearing seats, causing them to deform. I need to get the hub assembly/bearing setup reworked by a machine shop in the near future. Harry has offered to rework the wheel, but like you, shipping to the US is not cheap for a heavy assembly like this, so i didn't take him up on the offer.

Seeing as you are on the right side of the pond in terms of sidecar innovation, if i were you, i'd look into tracking down who is doing conversions in Europe/UK - I've seen photo's of a wheel setup recently, using Smart Car 3-bolt 15" wheel sets being used by one of the major German sidecar shops for their rigs, which looks like a really nice, sidecar rig scaled, rim solution. I'm not sure of the manufacturer, it might be Ruko, but not sure - perhaps someone on the sidecarsuk email list might be able to give you a better idea on this.

EZS wheels are sourced in the UK I think. If you could track done who does them, maybe you could buy direct? They had a kit for a Bandit at one point. Don't know if they still do. Good luck!

Heddingham(Unit Sidecars) may be a good source :
http://www.unitsidecars.co.uk/sssidecar.htm
Ongar Motorcycles Ltd
Unit 1, Oak Industrial Park
Great Dunmow
Essex
CM6 1XN

Tel: 01371 875252
===========================================
EZS Site:
http://www.ezs-sidecar.com/index.html

There isn't a specific kit available for the Bandit any longer, for what research i've done on EZS in attempting to get my rig setup in the past few years. I do have an EZS front rim assembly that i sourced from Charnwood Restorations in the UK, that was meant for the Hayabusa. The good thing about Suzuki's, is there is a lot of parts that can be switched and swapped around to make things work. Using Bandit braking components (same as Hayabusa in bolt patterns/spacing, except for rotor center offset)
this wheel works well - but it was hella expensive.

Mouse,
Being as you are in the UK you may be able to source a 17" tire to fit your stock wheel at a decent price.

To expand on what Claude is inferring, the UK market has a 175/55R17 V Bridgestone RE-040 Lotus Elite (Front) £99.50 (Google cache of xpediatyre.co.uk - I don't know what has happened with Xpediatyre's website itself, whether it indicates the business has gone belly up...)

This would likely require a rework of the bead itself for your motorcycle rear wheel - something a competent machinist should be able to handle to make sure the two different bead seats (motorcycle rim beads, and auto rim beads are different in profile) are compatable, and eliminate the risk of tire unseating. NOTE: standard disclaimers apply, motorcycle and automotive tire bead seats are different, and are not intended to be used together - people have tried with mixed results, do so at your own risk yadda yadda.. see thread at http://www.sidecar.com/megabbs/thread-view.asp?threadid=1573&posts=2 for more information on that issue.

Bill states a couple of things that should be commented on.
First off disclaimers. We as sidecarists by th every nature of what we do call upon motorcycles to act in a manner they were not actually designed for. Harley Davidson says Harley Sidecars are okay for some of their models but not all of them. Ural of course and a few others have factory sidecars. I have aske Moto Guzzi reps and they felt it was a fine practice to install a sideca ron thie rproducts but this was not official. With that being said we have found in polls, though not scientific, that Hondas and BMWs are right at the top of the most commonly used bikes for sidecar tugs. Neither of these nor any of the other manufacturers actually condone this practice as far as I know. But we do it.
There are tire wheel combinations that will not work and have been proven to be dangerous. A 15" car tire on a 15" motorcycle wheel is proven to be a no-no. The bead diameter of th eauto tire is too small for th ebike rim and can cause major concerns with mounting etc. Yes, there are documented cases of injuries.
However some size rims do work as far as the size goes. 17" is one of them. Butm yes, as Bill stated, the bead area is diFferent in shape. I do not know of documentation that this has ever caused a real problem thogh. Bill mentioned 'mixed results'but is there any documented cases of problems actually arising? Bill?? In fact iof we want to get echnical a motorcycle rim's bead is not designed for the lateral forces we impose on it either. From that we can assume we are wrong before we even start.
So..we com eful circle. Lots of liabilty concerns make for disclamers to be voiced and rightfully so. Case studies? Not sure of the ones Bill alluded to. Bottom line? Yes, disclamers apply....you make your own decisions and live by them. You will find on this board and others that there are some proven and documented areas we will jump on pretty quickly to say " don't go there'. There are also some areas where you may have to make your own call. It is important to know that whatever decision you make is up to you. We are here to help if we can from our experiences and what decisions we have made...Right? Wrong? .. technically? In real practice? Hard to say in some cases.

Originally written by claude #3563 on 2/9/2006 8:30 PM

However some size rims do work as far as the size goes. 17" is one of them. Butm yes, as Bill stated, the bead area is diFferent in shape. I do not know of documentation that this has ever caused a real problem thogh. Bill mentioned 'mixed results'but is there any documented cases of problems actually arising? Bill??

Bill M reported issues with a deflating rear tire, as near as i recall, when he ran a 17" auto tire on his XX rear rim.. he welded up and machined out the bead seat, to rectify the situation. There's an old post on hpsidecars.com somewhere or other.. one case that comes to mind.

Yes, I think Bill M. actually sent the wheel to a claifornia buisness that deal with drag bike wheels to have the work done. This was on a true High Performance sidecar rig that is pushed quite hard with a large tire (Probably a 195 ) with probably less air pressure than many would run.
Note, I am not pushing the issue here but feel it necessary to state that sidecarists as a rule walk outside of more than one envelope. I have seen cases where motorcycle tires on sidecar outfits have 'broken the bead' to allow air leakage too. Was it because of the rim bead design? Could have been. Was it because of not checking air pressure or running less than optimum air pressure? Could have been that too or a combination of things.
No easy answers is there?

As long as you're in England, why not check with Watsonian-Squire and Unit? Both excellent manufacturers that might have knowledge/advice.

May I ask a couple of questions?
What would be the advantage of using a car tire- higher mileage?
How would you get the chain far enough out so it doesn't rub on the tire? Would you offset the wheel that much? I would think that that might mess up the bearings. (?)

Higher tire mileage, cheaper tires (likely never going to replace enough to offset high rim cost though) are the immediate things that come to mind.

A sidecar rig is no longer 'cornering' into curves and corners where a motorcycle can take advantage of a conventional motorcycle tread profile. With a heavier weight, or higher performance setup it's wise to match up the rigs handling with the HP. You need more tread on the road to keep it on the road in control. This usually involves an alternative front end to accomodate the difference in tire width. Note, cost usually gets stupid, fast at this point.

When i retrofitted my Bandit, I made a 1/4" aluminum sprocket spacer and then reverse mounted the sprocket to fine tune clearancee - clears the tire by 1/4" with no chain/sidewall slap. It doesn't need to be spaced over all that much even going to a 185/55R15 series on the rear of my rig (stock is 180/55R17). The swingarm clears fine, but i had to get a $10.00 ebay brake stay, and cut and rebend in a new profile to clear the wider on edge car tire.

The wheel size Harry Tarzain built this up from, originally came with a taller, but narrower 165R15 tire on it. I believe Harry uses a 5"x15" VW Beetle Centerline blanks for offset for this series, as well as another rim set to accomodate similar 135R15 conversions.

I've got another 185/55R15 front tire on the rig - when it comes for tire change, i'm going to try to reduce overall width of the new car tire.. IMHO i think you CAN go too wide on the front end, depending on your design/geometry of your front end.. waiting for a few more eco-cars to come popping up with skinny 15's for fuel economy to get tire selection revved up 🙂

Edit: why does this bbs mess with my paragraph structure?