Broken Champion Mounts

Hi,

The tubing looks to be rather a thin-wall section. A good welder should be able to reinforce the area that is breaking.

I would remove the frame and clean the area to be rewelded thoroughly. I guess it could be done with the frame on the bike, but I think a better job could be done with the frame on a bench.

I would make some triangular gussets that go up the tube about two inches and over about two inches from the edge on each side of the break. 1/8" or 3/16" mild steel would do nicely. One gusset on each side will be needed. Then it could be re-welded with MIG, TIG or Oxy-Acetylene. It looks to be a bit thin for stick welding, although it could be done by a welder with a deft hand.

I think that using gussets will help to spread the load over a larger area and help to keep you on the road.

Good luck!

It definitly needs gussets. You can tack weld the sub-frame in place and then remove it to clean and then re-weld the broken joint. I think I'd use a saddle gusset that looks like it's been bent into a "U" shape.

What is th ewall thickness of the material?
If using a u shaped 'wrap around the tube' reinforcement you may want to weld it to the threade spud and not to the subframe tube itself all the way around. Welding all the way around may encourage the whole subframe tube to break if it is thin wall material. This wrap around piece of material can be wider than the spud material and then taper up to it from each side. Make sure it is a tight fit all around to the subframe tube itself.
Another idea which is probably better is to cut th esubframe where the break is an insert a smaller piece of tubing inside the subframe material.If this is not feasable you could place a parger piece of material over th eoriginal subframe material. In either case drilling a hole and plug welding the new material into place may be best.
Example: If the original material is 1" OD place a piece of 1 1/4" x /120 wall material over it. If slipping th enew material over th eold is not feasabel the new material can be split length wise and the the two halves clampoed an welded back together over it.
Of course once this is done then the spud can be welded back on. A good tig weld would work and not require a gusset but otherwise I would gusset it anyhow. You coudl also fab a new spud and drill a hole into the subframe tubing to insert it into and then weld it.
Be careful is you are welding the subframe of modifying it when not on th ebaik because th eheat may warp it and not allow it to go back into place very easily. Tacking good on th ebiek and doing final welding off th ebike may help.

Forgot to mention that once all is repaired and back together make sure all mouting points of the subframe and the sidecar are tight and secure. If one mount is loose enough to case any flexing or movement breakage could reoccur.

I repaired both of the current fractures earlier this week and added gussets to both.

For the rear I changed the angle of the stub to be more inline with the strut and added two gussets.

For the front I cut a V in the broken section and welded it then added a large gusset to that area.

The tubing they used is mild steel and 1/8" wall.

The big PITA is that it is Powder Coated and would be fairly expensive to re-coat so a good Rattle-Can job finished it for now.

If and when I get a good tubing bender I will build a new set of SubFrames with a few improvements. Number ONE being the Front U shape that replaces the OEM Engine Guard which prevents removing the Sparkplug Cover blocking replacing Plug #1 and also preventing Valve Clearance checks. To do those normal maintance items with the Champion Brackets requires removing the Hack and the Front SubFrame which adds several un-needed hours and much frustration to and otherwise easy job.

Jerry

sorry to here you continue to have problemsI went with my riding bud to pick up a really nice used Champion Legend Friday, except for what looks like cheesy light weight connections (compared to my HD/TLE rig) this hack looks great next to his Yamaha Royal Star 1300. I think I remember you writing of structural failures when I first logged onto this site a couple yrs ago, ….do you think we need to replace these champion connections/tubing etc....what kind of problems have you had other than the welds breakking?_________LDuck

Originally written by JerryR on 10/14/2007 2:50 PM

I repaired both of the current fractures earlier this week and added gussets to both.

For the rear I changed the angle of the stub to be more inline with the strut and added two gussets.

For the front I cut a V in the broken section and welded it then added a large gusset to that area.

The tubing they used is mild steel and 1/8" wall.

The big PITA is that it is Powder Coated and would be fairly expensive to re-coat so a good Rattle-Can job finished it for now.

If and when I get a good tubing bender I will build a new set of SubFrames with a few improvements. Number ONE being the Front U shape that replaces the OEM Engine Guard which prevents removing the Sparkplug Cover blocking replacing Plug #1 and also preventing Valve Clearance checks. To do those normal maintance items with the Champion Brackets requires removing the Hack and the Front SubFrame which adds several un-needed hours and much frustration to and otherwise easy job.

Jerry

If you ever rebuild the entire frame, I would suggest some better tubing...perhaps chrome-moly/4130. Apparently the mild steel used by Champion is subject to fractures.

Originally written by gnm109 on 10/15/2007 5:44 PM

Originally written by JerryR on 10/14/2007 2:50 PM

I repaired both of the current fractures earlier this week and added gussets to both.

For the rear I changed the angle of the stub to be more inline with the strut and added two gussets.

For the front I cut a V in the broken section and welded it then added a large gusset to that area.

The tubing they used is mild steel and 1/8" wall.

The big PITA is that it is Powder Coated and would be fairly expensive to re-coat so a good Rattle-Can job finished it for now.

If and when I get a good tubing bender I will build a new set of SubFrames with a few improvements. Number ONE being the Front U shape that replaces the OEM Engine Guard which prevents removing the Sparkplug Cover blocking replacing Plug #1 and also preventing Valve Clearance checks. To do those normal maintance items with the Champion Brackets requires removing the Hack and the Front SubFrame which adds several un-needed hours and much frustration to and otherwise easy job.

Jerry

If you ever rebuild the entire frame, I would suggest some better tubing...perhaps chrome-moly/4130. Apparently the mild steel used by Champion is subject to fractures.

I don't necessarily agree with the tubing choice being bad. We have not had reports of any consistant problem with champion subframes nor others for that matter. Most subframes are built with mild steel and it is more than sufficient.
We typically use 1" and 1 1/4" DOM tubing which is mild steel. We also typically utilize .120 wall material although in a place where a catilevered connection is to be made we will insert some 1" x .120 inside of the 1 1/4 material to create more strength.
The spids shown looked as though tey ripped out of th etubing. Gussets would have helped of course but possibly there was a welding issue invloved. There could have also been an situation where flex and or harmonics were working on the connections. Hard to tell. When we install a spud it is not just welded to the tube but the tube itself is drilled out to the O.D. of the spud and the spud itself is inserted into the tube and then welded. Sometimes the spud goes all the way through the tubing and sometimes not depending upon the application.
Yes we have done subframes with moly in some cases but it is not the 'norm'. We have also utilized solid stock for some applications.
I suppose what I am getting at is that it is not fair to jump to conclusions that all subframes made from mild steel are inferior. It is also not really right to say that all subframes from and one manuafaturer are inferior due to an isolated failure.
No assembly, no matter what it is made of, will ever be any stronger than it's weakest link. A weak link at a weld can appear whether the subframe is made of moly or mild steel.
Please do not take these comments as argumentative as they are nto meant to be that way.

Jerry wrote:
>>For the rear I changed the angle of the stub to be more inline with the strut and added two gussets.

For the front I cut a V in the broken section and welded it then added a large gusset to that area.

The tubing they used is mild steel and 1/8" wall.

The big PITA is that it is Powder Coated and would be fairly expensive to re-coat so a good Rattle-Can job finished it for now.

If and when I get a good tubing bender I will build a new set of SubFrames with a few improvements. Number ONE being the Front U shape that replaces the OEM Engine Guard which prevents removing the Sparkplug Cover blocking replacing Plug #1 and also preventing Valve Clearance checks. To do those normal maintance items with the Champion Brackets requires removing the Hack and the Front SubFrame which adds several un-needed hours and much frustration to and otherwise easy job.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Jerry, sounds like you did a good job on the 'fix'. Aligniong the spud was a good move and will take a lot of th edirect stress off of it.Gussets are never a bad thing either. SWee my previous post on materail used. I agree totally on how powder coating can be a pain in the butt. We offer our subframe painted or powdercoated as an option.
One thing that I didn't see mentioned here was whether Champion had been contacetd or not. In my mind if there is any problems with any subframe or anything we build I want to know about it immedialtely. Things can happen no matter how much care is taken when fabrication is being done. If issues arise the report coming back to me, even though it isn't comething we want to hear, is something that is very important to be reported. I would think that Champion woudl feel the same way. You woudl be doing Champion a favor as well as possibly a fellow sidecarist by reporting the problem.

Jerry,
I didn't look much but appearently there are too long levers and no reenforcements. ==> US design not German or Swiss! (same trouble as with machinery or cars)

On certain designs that "work" as a sidecar frame or airplains the stiff materials are the first to break! "Bring the forces into the main/subframe as direct as posible and avoid these long levers. If the design was made by an so called "profesional" look for somebody with more experience! EMC/Sauer/Jewell...

Don't only reweld => it will break again. Get tips from a good mecanical engineer or technitian and reenforce all corners and weak points. (take care not to weld right into the corner, (avoid to weld so that the beeds run together into one meeting point, that makes things worse).

NEVER use 7018 electric welding electrodes!!!! that will break for sure.
Soft with soft works great, means 6011 / 6013 or brass or silver solder will work great if you reinforce in the right way.

The driveing style and the roads you go, make a hole bunch of a difference. too. I prefer to have to bend a frame back (like my first SC) then that a frame or axle breaks.

Best regards
Sven Peter Pan

Originally written by Peter Pan on 10/16/2007 4:59 PM

Jerry,
I didn't look much but appearently there are too long levers and no reenforcements. ==> US design not German or Swiss! (same trouble as with machinery or cars)

On certain designs that "work" as a sidecar frame or airplains the stiff materials are the first to break! "Bring the forces into the main/subframe as direct as posible and avoid these long levers. If the design was made by an so called "profesional" look for somebody with more experience! EMC/Sauer/Jewell...

Don't only reweld => it will break again. Get tips from a good mecanical engineer or technitian and reenforce all corners and weak points. (take care not to weld right into the corner, (avoid to weld so that the beeds run together into one meeting point, that makes things worse).

NEVER use 7018 electric welding electrodes!!!! that will break for sure.
Soft with soft works great, means 6011 / 6013 or brass or silver solder will work great if you reinforce in the right way.

The driveing style and the roads you go, make a hole bunch of a difference. too. I prefer to have to bend a frame back (like my first SC) then that a frame or axle breaks.

Best regards
Sven Peter Pan

What you say is quite true. Also, I don't thnk that 1/8" wall mild steel tubing is sufficient for a sidecar frame.

Claude I e-mailed Champion to let them know but don't expect any reply. It's like p'n in the wind trying to contact them. It seems they are much too busy with their Trike business to respond to Hack issues.

However on the good side the local Dealer did get them to replace the first broken sub-frame even though it was a year out of warranty. 😉

The point is that there are some problems with the basic subframes and they do need to be aware of them as well as others.

The local Dealer suggested that I am simply turning too hard to the left causing too much stress but I find that hard to understand. In my case I don't have the EZ-Steer and have to use simple muscle power so hard left handers just don't happen all that much.

The Stubs/Spuds are not inline with the struts and are simply butt welded to the subframe metal. I have noticed that the later front subframes have some gussets that the early ones didn't but not in the area where mine broke. So Champion must have noted some earlier problems and made some corrections. Perhaps they will see the pics I posted even if they don't respond to my e-mail and make some further corrections for future production. Along those lines the only responce I have ever gotten from Champion was to a suggestion early on about the need to remove the entire front subframe to do simple mtce due to a 1/4" of space in the U section and they stated then that the had no intention of ever changing anything with the GL1800 mounts. My local Dealer relates that he too has had no luck with trying to give Champion any feedback or response to requests for minor changes related to Sidecars. Trikes are their major interest now and it seems that 99% of their efforts go there, after all that's where the $$$$ is now days.

Jerry

>>>The local Dealer suggested that I am simply turning too hard to the left causing too much stress....<<<<

This is not a valid argument at all.