Currently, I have a 1/2 degree lean in toward the sidecar with no one on board. Once I have myself and wife on the bike and my son in the sidecar, it measures 1/2 degree lean out. The toe in on the sidecar is 3/4 inch. With that setup, there is a pull to the right as I travel down an interstate. The interstate appears to be relatively flat, although, there has to be a slight slant for water to run off. Even with that slight slant, I need the unit to drive effortlessly on a typical interstate. If I travel from Houston to Dallas (250 miles), I should not have to canstantly be pushing with my right arm to keep it on the road. On a scale of 1 to 10, I would say that the current pull to the right would be at a 3 with 1 being negligable to 10 being dangerous.
With that being said, here is my question to those who have experience with the triple tree. Without any adjustments being made to the rig, and a triple tree were to be installed, how much would the tree affect or override the current pull to the right. Try to rate it on a scale of 1 to 10 with the 1 having little or no affect to 10 being so much that it virtually elimates the pull as if it performs like power steering. Thaanks for everyone's help thus far.
First you should have the heavier passenger in the sidecar, not on the bike. Lots probably be said about this by others.
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The majority of pull at speed is caused by the asymetrical wind resistance of a sidecar rig. The drag on the bike is symetrical and does not contribute to a left or right pull. Think of a hand pushing on the front of the bike, it would not cause a right or left pull. Now picture that hand pushing on the sidecar, it will cause the rig to want to turn right as it pushes the sidecar back in relation to the bike, which causes the rear tire of the bike to track left of the front, creating a pull to the right and extra wear on the rear tire. Currently you are compensating for this by steering the bike left. You can set the rig to compensate for this by increasing the lean of the bike away from the sidecar, just as you would lean a solo bike the direction you want to turn. There is always a force on a sidecar rig causing a right pull, and if a rig pulls to the left, it is because you have over compensated for the right pull with too much lean away from the bike, creating a left turn.
Road crown will have some affect on pull as a change in crown will change the effective lean out of the bike. Changing the load on the bike in relation to the load in the sidecar will also change the effective leanout of the bike. These are both static settings and do not change in relation to speed.
The wind load on the bike changes as a square of the speed. I posted a table a few months ago but do not have the numbers handy. A example is that from 10mph to 50 the wind load may roughly double, it will double again from 50 to about 70, and again from 70 to just over 80. These numbers are not exact, but illustrate the concept. So at slow speeds, the crown and toe in will have a noticeable effect, but as speed increases, wind load will become the major force causing pull. Since wind load varies with speed, it is impossible to set your leanout correct for all speeds, you need to pick the speed you plan to travel most at, and the amount of crown and weight most likely on those roads and set your bike lean for those conditions. It will still pull to the right or left under other conditions.
Toe in and trail have little to do with correcting for a right or left pull. Reducing trail will reduce steering effort which will seem like less pull, but the same forces causing the pull will be present.
Repeat - Changing the trail will not change the forces acting on the bike - it will mask those forces by reducing the steering effort required to overcome the pull. It is better to first set up you rig properly to minimize the pull. This will increase tire life and result in a better handling rig.
Any toe past the amount needed to take up the slack in the bearings and mounts, will increase the bikes tire wear and cause the rear of the bike to track to the left of the front tire as the bike crabs down the road, adding additional pull to the right. Toe in does not help the bike turn the direction you want to go, it does the opposite. Think of backing a car. In reverse you are steering your car with the rear wheels and you turn them opposite the direction you want to go.
3/4 inch of toe seems excessive, but I am not familier with your rig, and maybe you need that much. The relation in traction at the bikes rear tire and the traction at the sidecars rear tire will also affect how much the toe in a affects the rig. On a rig with a light sidecar with a skinny hard tire, a change in toe won't make much difference. A rig with a heavy sidecar with a sticky tire will be more affected by minor changes in toe.
This probably is not the simple answer you are looking for, but its not simple to properly set up a rig. I do like to see reduced trail on rigs and it will make operation more pleasant in most all conditions, but it is not a replacement for a rig that needs proper dialing in.
Wow! That was a lot to digest. It sounds like my next move would be to adjust the lean and leave the tow in put and see how it drives. How much of a steering help is the triple tree in your opinion.
I have not used a triple tree mod on a harley, but on most other bikes it can be akin to putting the power steering pump belt back on an old ford pickup. I have put miles on a rig without a front end mod, and will not have another rig without one. I use a unit leading link on my BMW airhead, but I am also not concerned about its looks.
The point I tried to make earlier is that making it easier to steer left to compensate for a right pull is not the same as setting the rig up correctly to reduce the right pull. Both should be done. I know HD says to use 3/4" toe, but that always sounds excessive to me as well. It seems the less sidecar lead a rig has, and I believe factory Harleys have 0" lead, the less toe you would want. I base this on the theory that as sidecar lead is reduced the sidecar tire works more like a rear and less like a front.
You should be able to play with leanout on your own, by adjusting the length of the top struts. On many, but not all rigs this will also change the toe in setting. I don't know which way the Harley factory rigging is set up. Someone else here probably does. When I'm planning an extended freeway trip at 75 to 80 mph, I set my leanout to ride straight. When set for no pull at these speeds the bike looks like it will tip over, but it tracts straight. When I arrive at the rally or other destination, I'll usually adjust for less lean so it handles correctly on the secondary roads where I end up.
This is the purpose of the electric lean adjusters, which can be used to adjust lean on the fly. My personal problem with electric lean adjusters is most require a 3 point mount instead of a 4 point mount, and I am not willing to sacrifice the strength of a 4 point mounting system.
i put in a liberty tree
id never ever run without a raked tree on a sidecar again - no pull at all - on any road - under any load - it just goes
essentially the tree provides the same geometry that you could get stock on a pre 84 sidecar pair.
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Food for thought..simple facts:
**Lean adjustments will cause the rig to pull right, pull left or steer in a neutral way on a given road. (Lean left go left )
**Toe in will eat tires if excessive. Less is best.
**Steering mods to make steering easy will not actually correct set up issues but will mask the effects of them. Result: Poor tire milage will be evident but with less effort.
** Factory of manufaturer's guidlines are suggestions only.Good starting place but not the final say. A good setup will track well and not eat tires quickly.
I tug a Ural sc with a 2005 Harley Ultra. The Ural was installed by Dauntless 2 summers ago. Although I didn't have a BIG problem with pull to the side, I found that I had trouble keeping up with my 2 wheel buddies on mountain roads. I just couldn't handle the curves due to the heavy steering. I had Liberty send a 5 degree triple tree to my local Harley dealer & had them install it this winter. In May I did a 4,000 mile trip from southern Oregon to Seattle Washington via Mexico. I can tell you that without a doubt the VERY BEST thing I have done to make my Harley/Ural combo a joy to drive is that triple tree. I can cruise at 75 MPH all day using only one hand resting lightly on either end of the bars with no pull, or vibration. I do have a little shake in the bars at 20 to 25 MPH but it goes away on both sides of those speeds. GET THE TRIPLE TREE!!!!!! You wont be sorry.
i never could get my harley to be neuatral - i could get it close but not center - and then in the left lane it would pull left hard...
put on the tree - problem solved
running radial tires - 1/4" toe - 0 lean loaded single 1/2 deg out two up. can run 80 on the cruise in either lane and it goes straight with no effort.
basically the tree is the same as a factory SC tree from prior to 84..
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TO, I'm also using the Liberty trees but I'm pretty sure I'm running around 3/4" toe. I just replaced my stock rear tire w/ 3500 miles on it. Front tire and hack tire or wearing real nice and even. Rig tracks great.
I did go to the Police MT90 tire but could 3/4 toe be wearing out my rear faster than normal?
Also I see your running radials, what rims are you using?
Thanks,
Jerry
scrubs wrote:
>>I did go to the Police MT90 tire but could 3/4 toe be wearing out my rear faster than normal? <<
YEP could be.
Last year I took off for the Hack'd Reunion withoutt taking time to set up the rig. We were installing the body up until th elast minute. Anyhow I took it for a quick spin and it felt good and we decided to just go for it. The thing worked very well as far as handling goes. Rear tire was not new but had decent traed on it. Upon getting to Chris' place in W Va the tire was pretty much bald. On the return trip home with a littl eover 100 miles to go the threads were beginning to show. I leaned the bike out to try and run on the part of the tire that still had rubber on it in order to get home. Did the last 100 miles pretty darn slow while stopping here and there to lean out the bike more. Needless to say that thing was not that easy to ride in a straigth line. Well we made it back to Penns Creek even though being foolish in doing so but my arms were about to fall off.
When we finally checked the toe in just for the record it as at 3" (Three inches). Shame on me. The tire is on the shop wall now with a note saying to be sure and check your toe in.
Bottom line is that a rig can handle well with far too much toe in. The result wil be a excessive tire wear. The less toe in the better up to a point on most rigs. Toe in IS the main reason for excessive rear tire wear.
You have a tire in that police tire, if it is a Dunlop
D402 PTMT90B-16, that should give you at least twice the milage that you had before depending on how you ride of course.
Yep, it's the police tire. Electric City HD stocks them. Charged me under 20.00 to mount and balance. From all that I read I thought that was a bargain for these tires.
I will recheck my toe in, but I know I set it up according to Liberty spec's.
Jerry
I am new here and apologize if I should have started a new thread. The wealth of knowledge here about sidecars is amazing. I spent a few years trying to figure out set up on the sidecar before becomming aware of this site.
Anyway, I have an 89 ultra(96 motor) with an ultra sidecar. It runs fine and I am happy with the setup. I am thinking of selling the bike and keeping the sidecar. I want to buy a later model ultra and attach my existing sidecar to it. Up to what year ultra can I buy and not have to buy any different mounting apparatus? I would like to get a twin cam, but 2003 or up would be my preference(inner cam problem solved by then I think). Also if it is a matter of $500 or less to adapt what I have to a later year, thats ok too.
purchase the current sidecar manual - it will list what years sidecar will work with what bike - and list EXACTLY what mounting parts or kit is needed.
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Originally written by Tom714 on 7/12/2007 4:09 AM
I am new here and apologize if I should have started a new thread. The wealth of knowledge here about sidecars is amazing. I spent a few years trying to figure out set up on the sidecar before becomming aware of this site.
Anyway, I have an 89 ultra(96 motor) with an ultra sidecar. It runs fine and I am happy with the setup. I am thinking of selling the bike and keeping the sidecar. I want to buy a later model ultra and attach my existing sidecar to it. Up to what year ultra can I buy and not have to buy any different mounting apparatus? I would like to get a twin cam, but 2003 or up would be my preference(inner cam problem solved by then I think). Also if it is a matter of $500 or less to adapt what I have to a later year, thats ok too.
Hi!
If you buy a late-model bike, you will need to buy the rear mount that matches the year of your bike. They have changed the rear mount from a three bolt to a two bolt. I don't know exactly the year but I think it was just before 2003. My 2004 has the two-bolt rear mount. Someone with a 2007 bike told me that they changed the rear mount again in 2007 since the entire frame was changed for the 96 cu. in. motor at that time.
The lower front and upper front mounts should fit with no changes. So it looks like you might have to purchase a rear mount. The post-1997 sidecars also have a disc brake but the brake line connects in the same way.
Your brake pedal and brake master cylinder should fit perfectly since they didn't change the rear brake lever to the "lay down' version until 2003. You should be able to connect for less than $500.
The Ultra radios, I'm sorry to say are a different situation. None of the cables on the later sidecars (after 1997) will match your 1989 bike. All of the connectors are different as are the cables. That's going to take some research because of the greater spread in time between your sidecar (1989) and your new motorcycle. Furthermore, the 2006 and later was different from all prior years due to the introduction of the Harmon-Kardon sound system. The sidecar manual that I have (99485-06) shows that 1989-90 Ultra bikes can be matched to 1994-1997 Ultra sidecars for the radios but not later than 1997.
In my case, I have a 2004 Ultra but we didn't want the radios so I purchased a TLE sidecar. It only has the turn signal/stop/tail/fender tip light cable so no problems were encountered. It was "plug and play" with a 2007 TLE sdecar. We moved the passenger plug for the headset over to the right side of the bike on one of the sidecar rails near the tub. My SO can plug her helmet headset into that plug and that gives her intercomm VOX and the ability to listen to anything that I have on. She also has a PTT button and a volume slide pot on the right side of the tour-pack that is within her reach. The other side of the tour-pack has the mode control (station changer) button but she really doesn't need that so I didn't bother to move it.
I hope this helps.
gnm109
Thanks. I appreciate all that you took the time to write. It answered all my questions and even a few I didn't think to ask. I think I will sell my 89, and keep the sidecar to hook up to a newer bike. I think I will pay someone to help me develop a relatively inexpensive music/intercom system for the sidecar. That should not be too difficult. I am glad I can switch the sidecar to a later model without too much mechanical issues. I like two wheels, but need the sidecar for fun too. Tom
