i was told that changing the trees only voided the warranty on the trees and bearings
its not as problematical as changing pipes or air cleaners or cams etc.
for most harley warranty issues - aftermarket parts effect the epa compliance and they are not supposed to send a bike out of the shop on the street with plates on it that is not epa compliant.
however it WOULD be a good idea to try and find a bike w sidecar with raked trees and ride that - or find a trike and ride that - the raked trees are the same for trike and sidecar use.
later
to
When I started this thread I was interested in the experiences of others, but I'd already done a lot of reading on various web sites, including the Liberty Sidecar site in the Northwest. Champion Sidecars in California also has a triple-tree that provides a 5-degree rake, and I believe the "sweet spot" is between 4 and 5 degress.
It's fairly clear from the responses that a raked front end would help with handling in turns, and I've seen no one express regrets in any postings. Someone had mentioned that Harley used to include an adjustable T-Tree with their sidecars a couple of decades ago, but the interest was limited and, like the additional sidecar ballast weight, that accessory was discontinued due to lack of interest. Both have their place, and if the popularity of sidecars increases they'll probably make a comeback.
I have to mention that while I was recoverring from my shoulder injury, I did a lot of Internet research on what to replace my Sportster with for greater stability. I was leaning toward a trike until I actually spoke with the Dealer, but there are a number of shops that specialize in accessories for those who are handicapped and want to keep riding. http://hausoftrikes.com/index.htm has a variety of offerings from automatic clutches, to complete automatic transmissions, to re-routed brake lines to both hand grips, there are a variety of modifications one can make to keep someone who has a handicap in the saddle.
I don't want to change the thrust of this thread, but I felt it worh mentioning.
Originally written by timo482 on 2/11/2008 10:03 AM
i was told that changing the trees only voided the warranty on the trees and bearings
its not as problematical as changing pipes or air cleaners or cams etc.
for most harley warranty issues - aftermarket parts effect the epa compliance and they are not supposed to send a bike out of the shop on the street with plates on it that is not epa compliant.
however it WOULD be a good idea to try and find a bike w sidecar with raked trees and ride that - or find a trike and ride that - the raked trees are the same for trike and sidecar use.
later
to
I wouldn't bet on a frame warranty in the event of some form of damage after changing forks to leading link. In any case, I was talking about an entirely new fork, not just the trees. My experience has been that the dealers take the hard line on warranty issues when extensive modifications are made and why not?
Originally written by Uncle Ernie on 2/11/2008 10:24 AM
I've been hearing about these triple trees for a long time, but never asked;
Does this make the wheel base longer or shorter?
Longer Ernie. See attached picture on how trail is measured and it will make sense.
These discussions can create some confusion due to the use of the word 'rake'.
There is 'rake ' which applies to the steering head angle and there is 'trail' that more or less equates to what caster is on a car. The two work together.
On a sidecar rig 99.9% of the time we do not change the rake but the trail to get easier steering. To do this we may go to a leading link or to modified triple trees amoung other things. The modified trees are many times referred to as 'raked trees' which has nothing to do with changing the actual true 'rake' of the steering head.
Then of course there is the rake that is used to move leaves around but that is another story.
See atatched picture
Other ways to ease steering:
* Lower profile front tire (reduces trail)
* Sliding fork tubes up farther through trees (reduces trail)
* Raising rear of bike (Reduces trail)
* Wider handlebars (more leverage)
* Move fork assemble forward with bracketry(reduces trail)(SEE ATTACHED)
* Move front axle forward with bracketry(reduces trail)(SEE ATTACHED)
* Workout a little
Claude, that are great ideas and easy to do in my machine shop....
The first version needs more calculation.
the second one might bend the tubes, and is a little ugly.
Both are easier then design and build a new stearing head or leading link fork.
I'll analyze that when my wife is out of reach....
Good night for now.
Sven
Originally written by Peter Pan on 2/11/2008 9:47 PM
Claude, that are great ideas and easy to do in my machine shop....
The first version needs more calculation.
the second one might bend the tubes, and is a little ugly.
Both are easier then design and build a new stearing head or leading link fork.
I'll analyze that when my wife is out of reach....
Good night for now.
Sven
Sven,
When you speak of 'the first one' and 'the second one' you are speaking of the pictures and not the post itself.
Yes, some calculations are in order. I have see twop folks this year who have built leading links that did no calcs ahead of time. Both had issues because the trail was reduced too much.
If building from scratch off of a stock bike one can get by without actually getting to invloved if they know what the stock trail is. Knowing this it is not that hard to figure how far the wheel will be moved and thus how much the trail will be reduced etc.
The system that moves the front axle out in fron tof th efork tubes has been marketed under various names. Dauntless calls it 'leadeing legs'. See this link for a picture of one of theirs. It is much cleaner than th epicture posted earlier which was a home meade version.
http://tinyurl.com/2x2kv4
Note that to do any steering mods such as these at home, so to speak, can get invloved and can cause problems if not done properly. It is best to go with a manufactured system for most folks. But then again we are sidecarists right? LOL.
SEE ATTACHED FOR MORE PICS.
Originally written by claude #3563 on 2/11/2008 5:07 PM
(snip)
These discussions can create some confusion due to the use of the word 'rake'.
There is 'rake ' which applies to the steering head angle and there is 'trail' that more or less equates to what caster is on a car. The two work together.
On a sidecar rig 99.9% of the time we do not change the rake but the trail to get easier steering. (snip) The modified trees are many times referred to as 'raked trees' which has nothing to do with changing the actual true 'rake' of the steering head...
I am so glad you pointed this out! I cringe every time I hear folks talk about "raking" the front end to get better steering on their trikes or sidecars.
If you actually extend the rake as was common with the old school
choppers you have the exact opposite effect on the steering effort. You need steeper rake to reduce trail and get lighter, quicker steering. More rake equals more trail with conventional telo forks. Kicking the rake out(back when bikers built their bikes commonly done by cutting or chopping the frame at the goose neck and welding in extended frame down tubes-hence the term "chopper")makes the steering slower and harder.
As you said, "raked triple trees" are a different thing all together. You haven't changed the rake, but you've changed the angle of the fork tubes in relation to the rake.
Well i did it.. i ordered up the liberty trees...figured if i was going with the lower chrome kit might as well do it all at the same time. $875 delivered to my door. can't wait..ed
a bit of my experience.....
i left the 1" liberty supplied spacers out of the fork tubes which lowers the front end about a inch - then i moved the brake line bracket to the stabilizer bolt so that it would clear the fender. im also running a 15" rear tire & that lowered the rear about 1.5"
so its lowered - but still has full suspension travel.
however - its almost too low, i cant go over a surmountable curb loaded.
ymmv
i had the raked triple trees from liberty installed last may 2007 on my 02 electraglide/98 tle sidecar rig. i can tell you the difference is dramatic. you won't be dissapointed. i paid the $875.00 and i had to pay a shop another $400.00 for the install. i am not a motorcycle mechanic. it was a very expensive "mod" but well worth it. for my 2 wheel jaunts i bought an 06 suzuki hayabusa which i just traded for a new 07 softail standard 2 weeks ago.
Well here we go..it was a beautiful day yesterday here in the land of sky blue waters(even though there still a solid sheet of ice). I rolled the rig out and she fired right up, i guess it did'nt hurt it was 36 degrees out. i got in a 4 mile ride b4 the trailer from my local expensive t- shirt shop showed up. Up into the back she went...on her way for the new triptree from the nice folks at Liberty and figured while thay were at it go ahead and do the lower fork chrome to. I guess it pays to be a nice guy cause they said they would do the tree for the same amout of shop hours as they would charge for just doing the lowers. A deal i couldn't pass up. I will let you all know how it feels when i get her back. Ciao for now. Ed.
Originally written by shortcut on 2/13/2008 10:25 PM
i had the raked triple trees from liberty installed last may 2007 on my 02 electraglide/98 tle sidecar rig. i can tell you the difference is dramatic. you won't be dissapointed. i paid the $875.00 and i had to pay a shop another $400.00 for the install. i am not a motorcycle mechanic. it was a very expensive "mod" but well worth it. for my 2 wheel jaunts i bought an 06 suzuki hayabusa which i just traded for a new 07 softail standard 2 weeks ago.
Okay, have a question. Have you ridden your bagger without the sidecar attached?? I also have an '02 FLHTCUI that I use to push around the sidecar but pull the hack off to do a couple (6,000-8,000 mile) trips a year. Have been told with the racked tree riding without the sidecar he bike is VERY "squirrely".
o~o
Originally written by Texan on 2/27/2008 2:31 AM
Originally written by shortcut on 2/13/2008 10:25 PM
i had the raked triple trees from liberty installed last may 2007 on my 02 electraglide/98 tle sidecar rig. i can tell you the difference is dramatic. you won't be dissapointed. i paid the $875.00 and i had to pay a shop another $400.00 for the install. i am not a motorcycle mechanic. it was a very expensive "mod" but well worth it. for my 2 wheel jaunts i bought an 06 suzuki hayabusa which i just traded for a new 07 softail standard 2 weeks ago.
Okay, have a question. Have you ridden your bagger without the sidecar attached?? I also have an '02 FLHTCUI that I use to push around the sidecar but pull the hack off to do a couple (6,000-8,000 mile) trips a year. Have been told with the racked tree riding without the sidecar he bike is VERY "squirrely".
o~o
In such a situation, it would be dangerous. If raked trees are used, the trail is wrong for solo riding on your FL. Here is a quote from a site that speaks about rake and trail in such a situation.
"A word to the wise: If you want to extend your stock Harley's front end by using a set of raked triple trees...DONT! Raked triple trees are really used where the bike has a raked neck of 40 degrees or more. In these cases the raked trees bring the trail back to a shorter, more manageable, distance. Using raked trees on a stock steering stem will shorten the trail too much and lead to instability as the speed increases. Picture a high speed shopping cart. Consider, instead, a set of raked cups that keep the pivot and the fork tubes parallel to each other but "kick out" the front end....or rake your chassis by cutting your neck and positioning it for longer tubes, chopper style."
From http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/rakeandtrail.html
So, if you change to different trees, you should decide in advance that you won't be doing solo anymore.
In my case, while I see the value of changing the trees on a dedicated motorcycle, I can't commit that I will never take the sidecar off for a while. So I make do with the HD steering damper. Nothing's perfect.
Since I can't state that I'll "never" try to use my Ultra solo in the future, I've not pursued raking my front end. But, I wanted to get an idea of how the concept was received and this thread has been enlightening.
At this point the Dealer is waiting on a new, and slightly extended, handlebar for the '08 Model and that should provide a little more leverage in turns. I don't find the stock ride to be too difficult, but it's certainly going to build muscle over time if you drive a lot in a city environment and make a lot of turns.
