More info:
I have 90 days to take the riding skills test before my written test
and temporary permit (daytime only with no passengers) expires.
The test is offered in Kirkland and Centralia... one Saturday per
month. That means I have only three opportunities to take the test.
If I were to fail the test for some reason, I would probably have to
start the entire process over again!
Explain how any of this is fair and equitable?
If I were in the process of buying a sidecar rig I probably would
have said forget it. When I asked if I should get a Ural, I never
suspected that the government would make owning one hell for me.
At the begining of my posts in this thread I was a bit irritated
by the new requirement... but I figured I would just go ahead and
comply... now I am frustrated and angry beyond words.
I didn't like having to pay extra fees... but that is trivial compared
with the time investment to either take the safety class or the tests.
And I don't consider paying money to the government trivial either.
I've been in contact with Rich Bright from ABATE WA.
Here is some of what he had to say:
ABATE was opposed to this legislation, The board and I felt it was incomplete, and that
the system for instruction was not even in place, but the folks at the WRRA pushed it
as though they represented all of you.... Currently i know that the limited number of
students taking the MSF Classes for three wheel is so small, those still offering the
classes can't make any money, and after all that is what it is all about- not safety-
Below is the 2003 message put out by the folks that gave you this legislation....WASHINGTON ROADRIDERS ASSOCIATION
SB 5229; the bill to incorporate sidecar / trike training into the subsidized portion
of the WMSP passed the House of Representatives this afternoon. It has now passed both
the House & Senate, and will be forwarded to the Governor for signature.The WRRA met with Governor Locke's transportation advisor the first week of session.
The feedback was very positive. The WRRA will be in contact with the Governor's office,
and will post information when this bill is scheduled for signature.I once again offer my serious gratitude to all of you who called, e-mailed, and lobbied
this legislation. Final passage is due to your efforts. You DO make the difference.I would also like to acknowledge the efforts of Sen. Mary Margaret Haugen; Sen. Jim
Horn; Rep. Ed Murray and
Rep. John Lovick for their help with, and attention to, SB 5229.Special "well done" to Dave Wendell, WRRA Director of Rider Education, for his time and
work. Dave spent a year working with Sen. Haugen, and staff, assisting with the
original draft, preparation of lobbying materials...and more than a few hours in Olympia.Karen Bolin kbolin53@attbi.com
WRRA Gov't RelationsThis message will be posted on the WRRA web site at: www.roadriders.com
PS:
If you like the prior info I sent- look what else the WRRA and it's officer approved as
"endorsed by motorcyclist"SB 5134 - 2007-08
Authorizing police officers to impound vehicles operated by drivers without specially
endorsed licenses.Sponsors: Senators Haugen, Swecker, Rasmussen, Delvin
By Request: Washington State PatrolDepartment of LicensingWashington Traffic Safety
CommissionThis is being used to fish for motorcyclist-
They also approve this bill:
SB 5273 - 2007-08
Modifying motorcycle driver's license endorsement and education provisions. (To take
the MSF course it now cost $125- A $50 increase, 5 years ago it was only $50, now it is
$150- Again, is it about safety? Or Money?I think we should be able to force the legistion to fund this program better or
eliminate the rule.The real reason for this, was money for the folks who forced this. Some where paid
money to devolpe the plan.
What happened was a "Concerned Three Wheeler" wanted classes taught to her- So in 2002
a bill was drafted and set asside when it was pointed out that 3 Wheelers pay no
endorsement fee. In 2003 a new bill was introduced, SB-5229-If you are opposed to this mess, let me know that the Three wheelers want a change, and
I will help you get the law improved ot removed?Rich Bright
ABATE of WA- State Coordinator
I urge you to contact your legislative representatives and complain
to no end about this!
I have contacted all 3 of my reps today.
Here's a list of reps by district..... mine's the 26th district.
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rosters/MembersByDistrict.aspx
Contact Governor Gregoire too (I did)
http://www.capwiz.com/politicsol/mail/?id=31787&type=GV&state=WA
Originally written by WashCI on 8/9/2007 9:58 AM
Actually that is being discussed on a national level. It is on the radar. What will be the end result? Don't know, beyond my paygrade.
I think the AARP lobbyists will put up more of a fight and with much more clout than anyone ever could over any sidecar/motorcycle issues.
WASHCI,
You stasted that three wheel riders requested this law. Who? Most that I have heard comment on it knew noting about it.
I asked if you had previously contacted th eSidecar Industry Council. Did you?
Did th eUSCA know of it except for maybe a selct few.
Who were the officers of the Washington Road Riders at the time this legislation was being considered. How long had the club been in existance?
Is it a big club now? Sounds liek it is? How many sidecarists belong to it?
You say you contacted the Brothers of the Third wheel. A father and son? Nice try..sounded good the first time around but doesn't hold much merit really. Note that I had posted about the only BTW chapter in Washington being defunct as far as what their website says in my last post. How long had they been in exisitance prior to that? No matter I suppose as obviously they were there long enough for you to say you contacted THE brothers of the third wheel.Sure did sound good.
You mentioned Dave Wendall. What hat was he wearing at the time of this legislation being formed? He has had quite a few different titles.I think he was awarded the Pop Dryer award by the USCA -SSP one year. Who is (was)thE USCA -SSP? Basically David Hough. Oh and a reminder to clear the air that the letters USCA are only letters according to David Hough and do not stand for anything in this case.
David Hough? I think he was awarded the Pop Dryer award by the USCA-SSP one year too...hmmm.
Originally written by WashCI on 8/9/2007 11:22 AM
With regard to Vernon's training, he and I have discussed this. His training is on dirt and while I understand his logic, we will not substitute dirtbike training for a 2 wheel endorsement so the same applies to 3 wheels. We do accept training from other states that have the same training standards as our own (2 & 3 wheel).
Steve, you and I both know there is a little more to it than that. Aside from the disingenuous remark in the last sentence quoted above( and which states might those be?) there seems to be some active effort to discourage additional training being provided to Washington residents.
When I first approached Carl Spurgeon about it the excuse was you couldn't inspect me because I am 2 miles outside of your borders so that made it impossible for you to ensure I was actually teaching to your standards.
I offered to find a place in Washington to do it and was told I could only do it if I charged no more than $100 for the class OR I bid for monies from your program. This was an interpretation of the legislation not the letter of the law as I read it, anyway.
Unable to persuade Carl that it would be better to let me charge my normal fee and forget about the State subsidy I asked to be sent the bidding information so I could submit a bid. That never happened even though I was assured it would. When I followed up I was told that bidding was closed, then I was told that it had been decided not to allow new sites to bid. Then I got the rigamaroll about not being valid because I train on a grass lot, even though you have no experience upon which to base that judgment. The traction is comparable to that of Boeing field on a damp day and better than Boeing field on a wet icy day. I know, because I have taught for Evergreen there under those conditions which are not unusual.
My class is not dirtbike training! It is exactly the same as ESC S/TEP classes taught in Seattle. I get the training materials and the completion cards from Evergreen Safety Council, our instructors are all Evergreen trained and certified and we do the course by the book. All the S/TEP exercises can be and are performed to the same standards as those done on pavement. It works the same & the experience translates directly to the street. If you can stop from speed in the mandated distance and corner at the test speeds without going out of your lane on grass you sure can do the same on dry pavement!
The you said I could subcontract through Evergreen if we could find a paved lot, but you would not let me bid or do it on my own. Even though this is a losing proposition for me I tried to set that up in Vancouver but was unable to put it together.
I get the distinct impression that sidecar training is low priority for you guys, you don't care if some of your residents can't get training or testing and there are some deeper politics going on here.. I am very disappointed.
Don't misunderstand my criticism. I feel this way because I don't think your department is meeting nor does it intend to meet the spirit of the legislation or the needs of the three wheeled motorcycling community. The WA DOL has become an impediment to this sport and to several Washington businesses that contribute to your economy.
For me this isn't about the money. It won't make much difference to me financially if you never allow Washington residents to test through my program. It isn't a money maker for me, it is something I do because it is needed and I enjoy doing it. I sort of break even if you don't look too closely at all the costs. But I do it without any of your funds and don't want or need to change that.
Vernon Wade
Adventure Sidecar
Mark Wrote:
>>I've been in contact with Rich Bright from ABATE WA.....snip<<
Mark, Please see if Rich can alert ABATE on a National Level to be aware that it has been said that other states may very well be considering this type of thing according to Steve who has posted here and said he is a director of something.
I think if a red alert is put out early to ABATE on a national level at least more folks will be able to give some input on each side prior to being blindsided by a selct few as seems to hav ebeen the case in Washington State.
Not a bad idea to contact Brother of the Third Wheel on a National Level either. Be sure they know that the defunct washington state chapter father and son were for it earlier of course.
Oh of course I could be wrong about the blindsiding and am quite sure someone will tell me so. That is not the main point though. The main point is to get the word out and at least allow a voice by those who may be affected by such legislation prior to it being put into law.
Hey Vernon after reading your post would you think the word 'F I A S C O'
may just possibly apply to all of this washington State stuff afterall?
Sidecar Industry Council
http://www.sidecar-industry.com/index.html
Board of Directors / Contact Sheet
Chairman
President
Primary Contact Doug Bingham
c/o Side Strider Sidecars
15838 Arminta St. Unit 25
Van Nuys, CA 91405
(818) 780-5542
fax (818) 780-1587
bingham@sidestrider.com
Vice President
Pete Larson
c/o Liberty Sidecars
2310 Rainier Ave. S.
Seattle, WA 98144
Tried to get onto the Washington Road Riders Association website and cannot do so. Is it down..anyone know?
Well folks I've tried to honestly answer your questions but it appears you're not interested in looking at it objectively. I wish you all well. I will continue to work enthusiastically with WA riders to improve our program.
I am sorry if you got ruffled by some of th equestions presented here. I also aplogize if you feel you are geting ganged up on but there are some legitimate concerns being expressed here. Anyhow, Thanks Steve sorry you are bailing out so soon. You had some good input. Maybe someone who is a more qualified director of something will be willing to respond to the people this law has affected and possibly will be affecting as days go by. Maybe some of the questions presented here will be at least addresed at some point and not skipped over.Thanks for trying anyhow I suppose.
Objectively,
Claude
Originally written by claude #3563 on 8/9/2007 7:16 PM
Hey Vernon after reading your post would you think the word 'F I A S C O'
may just possibly apply to all of this washington State stuff afterall?
I don't know Claude. I still think it is a good program, founded on good intentions.
I may have come down a little hard on Steve, but I am frustrated and I don't think the equation he is using to determine if three wheelers are getting "their fair share" addresses the real issues here: the legislature intended there be easy access to both testing and training when they enacted this legislation and the current approach has failed to provide that.
That doesn't mean it can't be fixed and it doesn't mean it is not a potentially great program or that it is a complete failure or a fiasco...and it certainly doesn't mean Steve or the other folks involved are not good folks.
By the way, Steve is THE guy for the training programs...
Originally written by claude #3563 on 8/9/2007 7:16 PM
Hey Vernon after reading your post would you think the word 'F I A S C O'
may just possibly apply to all of this washington State stuff afterall?
..............................................................
Originally written by RedMenace on 8/9/2007 11:26 PMI don't know Claude. I still think it is a good program, founded on good intentions.
I may have come down a little hard on Steve, but I am frustrated and I don't think the equation he is using to determine if three wheelers are getting "their fair share" addresses the real issues here: the legislature intended there be easy access to both testing and training when they enacted this legislation and the current approach has failed to provide that.
That doesn't mean it can't be fixed and it doesn't mean it is not a potentially great program or that it is a complete failure or a fiasco...and it certainly doesn't mean Steve or the other folks involved are not good folks.
By the way, Steve is THE guy for the training programs...
.....................................................................The fiasco is not the training class itself it is the governemt madate for it and the failure (fiasco) of being able to pull it off properly. Just as you wrote:
"the legislature intended there be easy access to both testing and training when they enacted this legislation and the current approach has failed to provide that."
Fail = fiasco Look up the word.
YOU ALSO WROTE:
'Steve is THE guy for the training programs...'
THE guy? I am impressed that THE guy was willing to come on and comment. That was big of him. Too bad THE guy could (would?) not respond to many of THE comments and questions.
Maybe he will do better with ABATE than the ones who this legislation directly affects.
Oh by the way Vernon your classes are great and I am all for them. The post you did refering to your comunication with Washington state did have FIASCO written all ovcer it though! Look up the definition of the word.
And Steve I did not say YOU called me a 'nobody' as that was a term I brought up. Should have just said I was a 'Voice crying in the wilderness'.
Good to see you, Steve,(the guy) join in even if for a breif time. Hope that even if you are upset you will still possibly consider thinking about what some of 'the people' may have had to say to you 'the guy'.
My question never got answered:
Were three wheelers crashing at a rate that warranted a requirement
for testing, licensing and compulsory education?
It seems to me that a complicated system was implimented
where a need never existed. All of this could have been
done on a voluntary basis instead of a costly legislative
requirement that is a nightmare for the end user.
You're right, I'm probably not going to be convinced that the
3-wheel specific endorsement is a good idea. So far, I have seen
absolutely no evidence that supports the need for a special license.
A trike is not a 180,000 pound big rig that is driven 250,000 miles
per year for long hourse each day. A trike isn't even as disimalar
from a 2-wheeler as a motorhome is from a passenger car (nor will
it likely see as many miles).
There is no need for a special 3-wheel endorsement. The fees already
collected for motorcycle endorsements could have been used to subsidize
3-wheel training. A 3-wheel only caveat on the license of those who
do not want to take a 2-wheel test could be added, but even that is
not necessary given the low likelihood that a person who took his
test on a 3-wheeler would then jump onto a 2-wheeler w/o adequate
practice.
It's all a solution where a problem never existed to begin with!
