Wow, I think I did it. Now everyone will be really confused. So page 4 does contain the most recent post.
Help me out a little, that's a pretty wide open question. What fiasco? Not dodging the question, just not sure what you want to know. I'll try a brief history:
Washington has had a 2 wheel rider ed program since the 80's. Here the course is subsidized so that the tuition can be reasonable. The money comes from endorsement fees only. The rights groups here put legislation together to create a fund that would be seperate from the general fund and not subject to raiding. They wanted only motorcyclist money in the fund so that no one else could make any claims on the money or direction of the program. This has turned out to be an excellent idea in light of other state funds being raided and programs being co-oped.
When I came to WA in 2000 there were already trike riders that were concerned because they did not have any training availible. They continued to work with their legislators until in 2003 a bill was passed establishing a training program. Since prior to this bill trike and sidecars did not pay anything (they were able to get a restriction on the regular drivers license for 3 wheels only and here restriction cost nothing) there had to be equity in fees to be equity in training (this from the folks that drafted the bill in agreement with the rights groups).
That is how the program came to be.
Now with regard to limited places to take the test, as you may have read already, there were only 93 test last year in the whole state. If the folks giving the test don't have enough experience giving the test, what's the purpose? Would I like more facilities? Sure, but not if it makes the testing useless. By the way, we worked with Brothers of the Third Wheel on the testing.
I'm sure you have other questions, ask away.
You said to move, that may not work very well. We are getting calls from other states about how our system works. I think folks are wondering why one type of vehicle doesn't need to test to operate on the roadway when everything else does.
You have a law requiring a special test and a special endorsement for three wheels. You have a responsibility to see that residents of the state have access to those tests so they can comply with the law, no matter if you do 3 tests or 1003 tests per year. People outside of the Seattle area simply do not have reasonable access to testing or training. If the numbers are so low they do not justify Washington's DOL making an effort to provide the tests and training to the rural areas of the state then how can you justify the requirements in the first place?
As for having competent testers-that is the DOL's responsibility. The sidecar test you use is simple, straightforward and not very different from
the test used for motorcycles. If a testing site can do a motorcycle test, they should be able to do the occasional sidecar test. What about some training for your people? Shouldn't that be part of the whole program?
I teach S/TEP classes in Oregon . You won't waiver the students that pass my class, even though it is the same program Evergreen offers in Seattle. It wouldn't cost the State of Washington a dime and it would provide access to classes and licensing for South Central Washington. I was told there was no need for it because there is no demand, yet I get inquiries every month from Washington residents who have trouble getting to your training and testing centers.
Sidecars will never have the numbers that motorcycles or autos have, but I have to believe the real reason you only did 93 tests last year is because you do such a poor job of extending this service to the public!
Vernon Wade
Adventure Sidecar
info@adventuresidecar.com
WASHCI (Steve) wrote:
>>>Help me out a little, that's a pretty wide open question. What fiasco? Not dodging the question, just not sure what you want to know.<<>> I'll try a brief history:
Washington has had a 2 wheel rider ed program since the 80's. Here the course is subsidized so that the tuition can be reasonable. The money comes from endorsement fees only. The rights groups here put legislation together to create a fund that would be seperate from the general fund and not subject to raiding. They wanted only motorcyclist money in the fund so that no one else could make any claims on the money or direction of the program. This has turned out to be an excellent idea in light of other state funds being raided and programs being co-oped.<>When I came to WA in 2000 there were already trike riders that were concerned because they did not have any training availible. They continued to work with their legislators until in 2003 a bill was passed establishing a training program. Since prior to this bill trike and sidecars did not pay anything (they were able to get a restriction on the regular drivers license for 3 wheels only and here restriction cost nothing) there had to be equity in fees to be equity in training (this from the folks that drafted the bill in agreement with the rights groups).
That is how the program came to be.<>Now with regard to limited places to take the test, as you may have read already, there were only 93 test last year in the whole state. If the folks giving the test don't have enough experience giving the test, what's the purpose? Would I like more facilities? Sure, but not if it makes the testing useless. <<<
Individuals take the test because they are required to by law. This means that you (the state)is responsible for doing your part to allow the law abiding people to o
Originally written by WashCI on 8/8/2007 10:49 PM
I think folks are wondering why one type of vehicle doesn't need to test to operate on the roadway when everything else does.
What about the folks who've never driven anything other than their car and then, when they're old and grey, can climb into a huge motorhome with their car or boat hooked to the back and head down the road with no special endorsement?
Originally written by Joyce on 8/8/2007 8:56 PM
Wow, I think I did it. Now everyone will be really confused. So page 4 does contain the most recent post.
Thanks Joyce!!
What about the folks who've never driven anything other than their car and then, when they're old and grey, can climb into a huge motorhome with their car or boat hooked to the back and head down the road with no special endorsement?
Actually that is being discussed on a national level. It is on the radar. What will be the end result? Don't know, beyond my paygrade.
Claude, thanks for the specifics. I'll try to address them although some have already been stated. I'm going to break your post into smaller bits. Hope that's ok.
"We are not speaking of a two wheel program here." Sorry just tried to provide background. The main point is this exists because 3 wheel riders wanted it and made it happen. Folks keep refering to making a law and we are trying to effeciently follow it. My agreement with the law is immaterial (I do for the record), it's my job to try and do the best I can with the resources we have.
You pointed out how other states have a restriction. I stated in the last posting that we were the same until 3 wheel riders wanted it changed (there is a recurring message here).
To address your (Claude) comments on training:
Training for 3 wheelers is currently availible in 2 "regular" locations. I have given Evergreen permission to provide classes in other areas if that is deemed necessary. Their limitation is funding. And here we go again, the 3 wheel community "appears" to be getting a fair share of the training dollars. I say appears because it's impossible to tell just how many their are. The law made it too easy for those who are not 3 wheel riders to get an endorsement for 2 & 3 wheels during the transition period. So the numbers are off.
With regard to Vernon's training, he and I have discussed this. His training is on dirt and while I understand his logic, we will not substitute dirtbike training for a 2 wheel endorsement so the same applies to 3 wheels. We do accept training from other states that have the same training standards as our own (2 & 3 wheel).
Testing comments:
I'm afraid we are going to have a hard time agreeing on things here. It makes little sense to accept less quality in the 3 wheel testing. Quality comes through experience and practice. Testing has been distributed among the major population centers. There is one exception and Mark has found it. Kitsap county needs a site and I have been trying to get one for quite a while, I shared this fact with Mark earlier. It continues to be a huge problem finding landlords who will agree to let testing happen on their facilities. Some of it is liability, some is noise (but that's another subject isn't it). I promised Mark I would let him know as I may finally be getting somewhere.
The stoplight analogy is little flawed though. More appropriate would be that it turns green just not as often as you like.
And as I posted before, we do accept training from state programs with the same standards. And maybe there is a point I need to make. We accept training from STATE and MILITARY programs. Private programs have no external quality assurance programs. That really is the primary criteria.
Claude, I'm sorry for not quite following this para:
"If the testing is being touted as such a great thing...laws having been passed to make it mandatory etc. did it really work out that way?
Now you allude to lack of qualified instructors , only a few folks actually taking the test statewide and then you are considering asking 'what's the purpose' and saying because of the above it may make the test uesless then it would seem that you are at least considering how dumb this all is. I am sure that those associated with Evergreen will never agree on this but if the facts that you stated are true than the mandated law which in in efect is no doubt useless as you put it. Please if you don't understand what I am saying here ask again...I may be a nobody but I can be patient."
I don't think I've painted you as a nobody and if you have that impression I'm very sorry, I've meant no disrespect. I do very much appreciate your patience on this para.
Let me just say I think the law makes sense and I think testing makes a great deal of sense. I get the impression you feel Evergreen has some influence on things but they are simply the contractor that won the contract to provide training. Others could well win the next contract. Maybe a club here in WA will next time.
I'm going to put these last few together:
"Do you have a contact person with Brothers of the Third Wheel?"
They were from Tacoma and I understand the chapter isn't active anymore. The riders were a father and son (The dad name was Greg and they rode custom built trikes) and a gentleman with a VW conversion. The last had a really unusal name but I can't recall right now. I'll have to do some homework and get back to you. Only state organizations and riders were contacted to determine a state issue (I'm sure you can appreciate that). However, Evergreen as the course owner was involved in the process. Dave Wendell helped as well as some input from Dave Hough. Their help was primarily with the training side but suggestions were taken from all sources that offered with regard to the whole program.
>>> I may have and may have other statments as well. I feel that you shoudl comment on some of the real issues already presented here already though. You cannot provide training now for those it is required of. All of this mandated three wheel testing may sound good on the surface when presented in some board room but it surely seems that in reality it ain't working too well. <<>I spent $693 for tax & registration on a USED rig, and they can't
even provide me with a reasonable way to comply with an utterly
stupid and unnecessary law!<<
Is that price real? Is it the going rate??? Subsidised training come from that ? Hmmm.
Mark is talking about registration (tags) not the drivers license endorsement. I listed all of the fees associated with endorsements and how they are distributed in an earlier post.
Thanks for the chance to present some of this info.
I've already spent $693 for registration.
$30 for endorsement.
I figure another $25 to take the riding test.
So how much of my $745 will go to 3-wheel rider education?
I could have easily paid for the training (which I never took,
and would have cost another $100) myself.
I don't think the government should even be involved in offering
rider education; it's not their job.
I don't need the government to parent me. I'm not a child, I can
make a responsible decision for myself as to whether I need to
take special training to be safe.
Originally written by Mark 42 on 8/9/2007 12:16 PM
I've already spent $693 for registration.
$30 for endorsement.
I figure another $25 to take the riding test.So how much of my $745 will go to 3-wheel rider education?
I could have easily paid for the training (which I never took,
and would have cost another $100) myself.I don't think the government should even be involved in offering
rider education; it's not their job.I don't need the government to parent me. I'm not a child, I can
make a responsible decision for myself as to whether I need to
take special training to be safe.
There is no fee for the test.
Only monies associated with endorsements/permits go to the Motorcycle Safety Education Fund. Someone else would have to let you know where the registration/tags go. The local office may be able to say for certain.
WA is involved in training because the riders set it up that way. It works well here (my opinion of course).
Originally written by WashCI on 8/9/2007 9:12 AM
...WA citizens shaped this and we work to try and follow their lead.
Were 3-wheelers crashing willy-nilly into other people or something?
Were there people dying daily, monthly, even yearly due to a lack
of 3-wheel specific training?
I am a citizen.
My voice hereby says "Repeal the law requiring a special endorsement
for trikes and sidecars. Return to the motorcycle endorsement being
a blanket license to ride a motorcycle with two or three wheels."
What about vehicles with two front wheels and one rear wheel?
Should they be seperate? Even a trike and a sidecar rig are
very different from each other... but there is no need for
a breakdown into a multitude of classes.
How about just a warning label on the gastank of 3 wheelers
that reads "This does not handle like a two wheeled motorcycle.
Proper training and practice are advised before venturing out
onto roads with traffic".
