Originally written by solo1 on 10/23/2006 7:36 AM
I believe that knowledge is important, especially to me, an old geezer at 78. I will not make the mistake of thinking that i know it all, since I am new to sidecar rigs. I have read this entire thread and I am grateful for picking up information about passengers and sidecar rigs. Some very good points.
However, after reading Hal Kendalls information on sidecars and thinking about tipover lines coupled with trail, I will continue to have only a solo seat on my Valk. I'm not smart enough to stay out of trouble in left hand turns.
great post, Solo.
except for the last line...you are VERY smart if you continue to ride with a solo saddle on your Valk.
I will admit I had a passenger on the back [my wife] twice, but only at very low speed. the first was when she first got on the rig a few years ago. I was not aware of the balance problem with passengers up there. When she first got on, first thing she said was "this feels wierd! leaning to the left!". and it doesnt get any better! We took off down the street of our neighborhood, made a few slow corners, stops, then headed down the road. about 1 mile furher she was pounding on my helmet..."stop!!!!"
I'm getting in the SC!"
since then she has always been in the SC. she had a very unsafe feeling, and could never relax. this was after riding 29 years on the back 2 up all over the country with me,having a great time!.
the second..and last time ....she got up there was last year before I put the solo saddle on. we stopped in town at a garage sale and I could not get all the 'stuff' on the back of the bike. so ,she climbed back on the bike and we went about 1/2 mile home ...slowly, that way.
now its solo saddle time and all is well!
my Gkids 9-11...always want rides , so they pile into the SC like they should. they, are much safer there, doing whatever they want to do, rather than up there, on the back seat hanging on for dear life.
The only more or less safe setups for passengers up ther are the harleys and goldwings with the high arm rests that hold the passenger in place. they seem to be avery good sulution.
Originally written by SidecarMike on 10/23/2006 9:37 AM
[
mike mentioned...
Give me some details of this actually happening.
I have heard, I believe it was on this site a couple years ago,or the SCT forum, from at least 2 differnt people about passengers sliding off the bike on a right hand curve, the bike losing control, and the following rig with passenger up there, also doing the same thing, and both crashed. the first passenger was thrown into an oncoming car or truck..I forgot which.
I am trying to document this..any body else remember that?
Originally written by Bob in Wis on 10/23/2006 9:01 AM
Originally written by SidecarMike on 10/23/2006 9:37 AM
Those manufacturers are also the ones who get sued if someone gets hurt.
Here are two of about twenty news reports I found in a five minute search on falling off a street motorcycle.
lets get back to the subject of passengers on the bike of sidecar rigs...2 entirely different animals.
those 3 you mentioned that had second thoughts made me very happy, that they realized the dangers before anything happened..if it does..but not happy that they chose NOT to get a SC rig.
I was also at the Skunks rally , and didnt hear of anyone talking to prospective sc riders ,about the dangers of passengers on the bike. I would like to meet him/her?
.
They didn't realize the danger, they were frightened OUT of owning a sidecar. Only one of them cited a conversation at Cameron as the deciding factor. The other two blame conversations on this site. That's what this whole discussion started as; People thinking that comments on this site mean the United Sidecar Association says they shouldn't carry the family on a sidecar rig.
A comment from another sidecarist this weekend;
Now that Harley is marketing trikes, let's see if they word their ads in such a way as to tell people it's dangerous to carry a passenger and if they only sell solo seats on them. After all, if you're going to fall off a sidecar rig in a left turn, surely the same is true on any turn from a trike.
:0)
Originally written by SideCarOne on 10/22/2006 9:10 PM
What is accomplished by recruiting a family to sidecarring if they overload their rig and die in a well publicised crash later?
The "family" sidecar outfit, for all practical purposes, is nearly extinct... unless they're a small and pretty skinny family. BMW gives their bikes a pretty good load capacity, typically about 200 kilograms (440 pounds). My R100GS hooked to a light (90 kilos) sidehack with just my 100 kilos and a few tools on board had already used up almost all of that load capacity. Putting a mere 80 kilo passenger in the sidecar would have used up all the bikes capacity and that little sidecar will only hold one adult. So like many outfits, mine can only handle a family of two adults. For Harley outfits, the limits are even lower- HOG(NYSE) rates their FLHP for 1200 pounds GVW and their sidecar for 300 pounds GVW= 1500 pounds GCW. Given that an FLHP weights in the mid 800 pounds to start with and probably at least 1/4 of the empty hack's weight is carried by the bike, with a 100 kilo rider that FLHP+TLE has maybe 60 pounds of weight capacity left. Throw a 100 kilo passenger in the sidecar and the FLHP is loaded to capacity and the hack is overloaded. Is it no surprise that Harley for years only authorized mounting their hack on the FLHP, which came with a solo seat as standard equipment.
So if the standard american family of XXXL sized momma and pappa and soon to be XXXL sized 2.2 kids asks for your suggestions as to a suitable sidehack combination, you should probably suggest that they get a pair of hacks or consider a convertable.
Then we need to be lobbying against add on fairings, saddlebags, etc. I'm currently disassembling a 1978 Goldwing with 259,000 miles on it according to the owner. It has an added fairing, two radios, saddlebags, top box, dozens of extra lights, a trailer hitch, and all kinds of added chrome. It also has a maximum carrying capacity of 360 pounds, nearly 50 of which will be a full tank of gas. If I were to weigh all the accessories I wouldn't be suprised to have a passenger capacity of less than the owner weighs, much less his lovely passenger or the trailer weight that comes into play.
I'm not suggesting they grossly overload their rig.
Once again, educating that family as to the safe way to do what they want comes into play.
"Harley is the ONLY Mfg. that makes there (sic) own Sidecars?"
"Harley is the ONLY Mfg. that has to safety certify there (sic) sidecar with there (sic) bike."
I was under the assumtion URAL and perhaps others had DOT approved sidehack rigs for sale.
Maybe Tim knows best.
Lonnie
Originally written by Hack'n on 10/23/2006 11:41 AM
"Harley is the ONLY Mfg. that makes there (sic) own Sidecars?"
"Harley is the ONLY Mfg. that has to safety certify there (sic) sidecar with there (sic) bike."
I was under the assumtion URAL and perhaps others had DOT approved sidehack rigs for sale.
Maybe Tim knows best.Lonnie
The main companies I know that build their own sidecars are Harley-Davidson, Ural and MZ. I've heard about some Chinese makes that are copies of or similar to Ural. As to whether anything but HD and maybe Ural are DOT-approved, I don't know. There are very few companies that make motorcycles AND sidecars anymore, for sure.
As to the overloaded Gold Wing, some times you get lucky. Were all the suspension components original? As a professional driver with over a million miles under my belt, I've seen plenty of overloaded rigs ranging from motorcycles throught pickups through tractor trailers. The drivers of these rigs would often brag about how their rig handled the overload "no problem" I've also seen plenty of blown out tires, bent axles, busted frames, and toasted transmissions, all thanks to overloading. Reminds me of the friend who was mad because I wouldn't overload my pickup and trailer with all the heavy metal desks she was getting for damn near free. She got a 10,000 pound trailer hitch put on her SUV with identical drivetrain and tow rating to my pickup and loaded twice as many desks as I would take... and blew out her transmission ($3000) on the way home! And then there were the unexplained accidents, the vehicles that went off on a curve at the marked speed or slower, and the ones that couldn't stop when there was plenty of room to. In contrast to that I've driven trucks with over a million miles on them that but for a few rattles drove like new. Why? Because they were operated withing their limits and properly maintained.
As for HOG(NYSE) sidecars being "certified" along with the bike, that's not true. There's a reason HOG(NYSE) sells the sidecar as an accessory and it is not available factory installed.
Originally written by SideCarOne on 10/23/2006 2:04 PM
As for HOG(NYSE) sidecars being "certified" along with the bike, that's not true. There's a reason HOG(NYSE) sells the sidecar as an accessory and it is not available factory installed.
I certainly agree with you regarding overloading. It is a cardinal sin. Sometimes it happens on light aircraft, as well.
I'm not certain about what you say regarding HD selling/certifying sidecars with bikes. My local dealer has a blue-flamed CVO Harley with matching sidecar that came in two crates at the same time on the same order. For obvious reasons they would have to ship it in separate crates. I guess I don't know what is meant by certification since I know that HD does sell bikes and sidecars together as matched sets. I've seen dozens of them sold that way.
By the way, since I heard the term on this forum, I have gotten to where I actually like calling the Harley-Davidson Motor Company by their NYSE Moniker. I looked up that other company, you know the big red Japanese one and, in like manner, I will henceforth refer to them not by their common name but rather by their NYSE ID, to wit, HMC(NYSE).
In that way, every time I make reference to them, I will be sending a message to the reader that they are in business to make money and are publically traded. Thus, people will be more cautious when purchasing their products.
that is patently not true, they are usdot approved.
there are models that are sold bike and sidecar as one unit - differnt vin, last digits of the serial numbers match - come with all the side car mounts on the bike.
for 84 through 2003 or 2004:
5th & 6th digits in the vin example: DD is police with no sidecar, DF is police with sidecar, DG is shrine with no sidecar, DH is shrine with sidecar, DM is Classic, DN is Classic with sidecar, DP is Ultra, DR is Ultra with sidecar. the vins of the cars have a similar code. by looking at the code you cant tell which PARTICULAR side car went with which particular bike or at least what model and year it was mfg and sold with.
for 2007 a Ultra with no sidecar is vin FC & a Ultra with a sidecar is FG.
on the older bikes - prior to 84 the vin codes for sidecar had a smaller engine primary sprocket &/or transmission sprocket, a three speed forward, one reverse transmissin and a adjustable fork [prior to 68 ALL came with mounts]. for the 84 to ~98 they just had different gearing and of course the mounts. twin cams dont need different gearing so they only get factory mounts.
there is even a custom paint program for them - 14k over the cost of the ultra gets you a matched SC set with flames and all kinds of chrome - cool but not for me.
the sidecars get a VIN & a MSO. salesmen often treat them like a accessory but they are sold same as a bike, same loan, same paperwork, same title & NOT through the parts department.
since i purchased them seperate i have two vins and two titles.
if they make 2500 a year [what i have read is the production] tle's have been in production since about 84 so thats about 57500 sidecars give or take.
Originally written by shortcut on 8/28/2006 7:12 PM
what i really want to know and i'm not getting an answer to is this: how fast and what do you consider safe. not interested in gas mileage. i average about 36mpg. what i would like to know is this: on a flat road with a hd/hd rig what is top speed wfo. i can only get about 70 maybe 75 on my stock set-up. is this about right? going up mountains with wife on rear and passenger in s/c only about 40!if i rigged my hd ultra s/c on a suzuki hayabusa could i go 180? so- how fast can you go?
LOL. Going more than 55 kinda defeats the purpose of driving my Ural. When I want to cruise the interstate I hop in my Durango.
There are no "DOT Approved" sidecars, even if the CEO of HOG waves his magic wand over them. DOT sets standards for things like lights and tires, and anything hooked to a motor vehicle (sidecar, trailer, etc....) has to comply with them. Thusly HOG sidecars, like every other sidecar legally sold in the U.S., are "DOT Compliant".
As for VIN numbers, HOG and anyone else is entitled to put VINs on anything they want- saddlebags, HD branded bar stools, whatever.... So the possession of a matching VIN on a HD and HD sidecar proves nothing. As for 2 digits indicating the mounting of a sidecar on an early 21st century (manufactured) non police bike, that runs counter to HOGs until recent insistence that HOG's sidecar only be mounted on FL police bikes.
So again, HOG makes (soon to be outsourced though) a motorcycle and sells a sidecar accessory, just like they make motorcycles and sell smaller accessory bags (without a wheel). HOG does not sell a motorcycle with a sidecar- they would have to repass all the emissions and safety testing to do so, and there is some question if they could do so.
Fact: Ural sells the only DOT and EPA compliant motorcycle with sidecar in the U.S.. It is unfortunate that HOG has been unable to catch up with the Russian competition,,,.
Originally written by SideCarOne on 10/27/2006 6:25 PM
There are no "DOT Approved" sidecars, even if the CEO of HOG waves his magic wand over them. DOT sets standards for things like lights and tires, and anything hooked to a motor vehicle (sidecar, trailer, etc....) has to comply with them. Thusly HOG sidecars, like every other sidecar legally sold in the U.S., are "DOT Compliant".
As for VIN numbers, HOG and anyone else is entitled to put VINs on anything they want- saddlebags, HD branded bar stools, whatever.... So the possession of a matching VIN on a HD and HD sidecar proves nothing. As for 2 digits indicating the mounting of a sidecar on an early 21st century (manufactured) non police bike, that runs counter to HOGs until recent insistence that HOG's sidecar only be mounted on FL police bikes.
So again, HOG makes (soon to be outsourced though) a motorcycle and sells a sidecar accessory, just like they make motorcycles and sell smaller accessory bags (without a wheel). HOG does not sell a motorcycle with a sidecar- they would have to repass all the emissions and safety testing to do so, and there is some question if they could do so.
Fact: Ural sells the only DOT and EPA compliant motorcycle with sidecar in the U.S.. It is unfortunate that HOG has been unable to catch up with the Russian competition,,,.
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The Russian bikes are in a class by themselves. They may be in competition with someone but certainly not Harley-Davidson. I've never ever seen a URAL on the road in my area. There are no dealers anywhere near me either, so I wouldn't even consider one. I'm still upset about the Cold War, anyway.
Where do your "facts" come from regarding "Harley soon to be outsourced" and Harley not making matched motorcycle and sidecar units? In fact they do. VIN's are provided by HD for their motorcycles and their sidecars. If they are sold together, they do match. Nor has Harley ever said that the sidecars are only for police machines. That's simply not true.
Regards, gnm109
Well, your welcome to be angry at the soviet communists all you want, because that government doesn't exist anymore. In fact communists are getting hard to find, although I hear there's a few left in Cuba and North Korea who haven't yet succumbed to McDonalds and Levis.
As for HOG selling a complete sidecar oufit, how come they don't come from the factory like that? The door on HOGs drop deck trailers is surely wide enough to fit a bike with sidecar- that's how they get the one at the bike shows from location to location.
In regard to HOGs restrictions as to what bikes they'll approve mounting their sidecars too, I specificly remember seeing fine print on HOG's website stating that Harley Sidecar mounting was approved with the FL police bikes only. That restriction has recently disappeared from the website, but it may well still appear in HOG's printed literature. Unfortunately, printed matter regarding sidecars and advice, never mind product knowledge, is rarely found at HD dealerships.
🙂
Hey, the owner's manual gives a top end suggested limit on the forward maximum cruise speed of my Ural, but it doesn't even mention in passing just how fast I can go in reverse. Must mean that the sky is the limit, huh? Man, wonder where the passengers all go when I hit the throttle full open in reverse, huh? I was reading Hal's book regarding tip over lines, but in reverse the lines seem to be a tad bit different. Hey, wait, doesn't that mirror say something about objects may be bigger than they appear? Is that my passenger back there on the road or is that just another road kill? Hummmmmmm. 🙂
This thread is interesting, in that I can surely see, as was suggested by one reply in the threads, why some folks would read the site and then decide a sidecar is not for them. The banter back and forth really makes the real issues sort of disappear into the background at times.
Personally (and a personal opinion only) , I believe that very few manufacturers address all that much about passenger seating to really allow a novice to make an informed decision in the first place. In reality, HD, Ural or whatever make are all really on the short end in adequally describing all aspects of sidecar ownership and safety. I believe they do this with a certain amount of intent as well, as the more they discuss in the owner's manual, then the more they are held liable for, in reality. Probably Ural does more to promote such, by offering incentives to take a safety class as well as discussing this at times on their web board.
Since sidecar training looks great and is promoted as such by many, it is also on the opposite end of doing all that much since it is not offered universally in all states and in all locations. Since all the various experts here, as well as at other sites, can't really do much more than offer up individualized personal opinions regarding seating and safety, it is no wonder that some folks read the site and then decide that owning a sidecar is not for them. The answers are all too confusing and the experts often can't agree on much of anything.
In reality, the sidecar market is a nitch market in the first place. Sidecars are not an abundance of the share of all motorcycles sold on the market, so the correct info on them, amount of knowledgable folks who operate them and the available literature or good information on them is limited at best. Go to your public library and see just what you can obtain if you think I am inaccurate about that issue. I think (only a personal thought though) that many folks simply decide they like the cool looks of owning something unique and then go and purchase it. Once they do that, they either do quite well in staying alive and enjoying it, or they eventually sell it off as a low mileage hobby that never quite panned out for them. I doubt the owners of most sidecars for sale in the bike mags, Ebay or whatever really offer much sidecar safety info to any potential buyer. I know I have been to motorcycle shops, Ural, Honda, HD and otherwise, in which the sales folks could care the less about determining if the sidecar rig was right for the person or not. Instead, they were counting the potential commission for the sale. When I got my Troyka, from a non-Ural cycle shop, they never even asked me if I had ever sat on one when they let me leave the lot with it for a test drive. The owner even mentioned that many of his best customers were policemen who did not even have a motorcycle license. They never even asked to see my license either (I have one though). No thought what so ever was given to trying to allow the customer to decide if a sidecar rig was safe for him or not. Maybe the real issue should be is the sidecar rig safe from purchase by such a customer and not is the customer in purchasing it.
Any rate, the issue seems a bit lost in the fog with the side issues of Urals vs HD and which is a better rig. Safety is always an issue with any rig, regardless of manufacturer. It is unfortunate that safety classes are not readily available to all areas of the country
Originally written by SideCarOne on 10/28/2006 1:13 AM
Well, your welcome to be angry at the soviet communists all you want, because that government doesn't exist anymore. In fact communists are getting hard to find, although I hear there's a few left in Cuba and North Korea who haven't yet succumbed to McDonalds and Levis.
As for HOG selling a complete sidecar oufit, how come they don't come from the factory like that? The door on HOGs drop deck trailers is surely wide enough to fit a bike with sidecar- that's how they get the one at the bike shows from location to location.
In regard to HOGs restrictions as to what bikes they'll approve mounting their sidecars too, I specificly remember seeing fine print on HOG's website stating that Harley Sidecar mounting was approved with the FL police bikes only. That restriction has recently disappeared from the website, but it may well still appear in HOG's printed literature. Unfortunately, printed matter regarding sidecars and advice, never mind product knowledge, is rarely found at HD dealerships.
Well, you have effectively hijacked this thread. It started out talking about speed, and like my thread on Harley sidecar mounts, now it's about URAL versus Harley-Davidson.
The Harley manuals on sidecars that I have, and I have all of them from 1960 to date, show civilian motorcycles being conected to civilian sidecars. There are no comments about police only so you are wrong on that issue.
The only thing we can agree on is that you don't like American Motorcycles, or sidecars, either. That probably includes Liberty and some other excellent brands like California, Motorvation and the like. That's a shame since the others are really quite good.
