Originally written by timo482 on 10/22/2006 11:17 AM
as far as passenger on the back of the bike
harley says if you haul three the heavyest has to go in the car and they say to never ever run somebody on the back seat with the car emty. - as long as the kids in the car weigh more than the back seat rider you are ok - unless you exceed gvwr - on a ultra with car that is 1650. the rear tire gawr is 850. to haul three all of them need to be runway model size or smaller.
as for me i run a solo seat on the bike and moved the tour pak up for my backrest - then nobody asks and i dont have to say no
later
to
also make sure that passenger on the back seat is strapped down so they dont slide off the seat, or hang out over the side, throwing the bike gemetry way off, in a sharp, unexpected right turn or swerve!
solo saddle is the way to go!!
Originally written by timo482 on 10/22/2006 10:17 AM
as far as passenger on the back of the bike
harley says if you haul three the heavyest has to go in the car and they say to never ever run somebody on the back seat with the car emty. - as long as the kids in the car weigh more than the back seat rider you are ok -
As say all of the other sidecar manufacturers. I'm really tired of this argument. Since the Skunk Rally last June, I've talked to three different families who were wanting to go to a sidecar to include the kids and have since decided against it. Two of the three decided against a sidecar because of what they read on this site about carrying passengers. The third because someone at the Skunk Rally convinced him that his family would die if he owned a sidecar. He already had the sidecar but hadn't mounted it. He has since sold it on eBay.
I thought we were here to encourage sidecars, not scare people away from them.
I like to think we are here to encourage sidecaring in a safe manner.
I personally would rather see someone give up the idea of a sidecar then encourage them in an unsafe manner. If someone is discouraged from the sport because of the training and equipment needed to practice the sport safely, that is better then risking the lives of their children. This may sound harsh but it is prudent.
Would you advise someone asking questions about their first sailboat, to skip lifeboat, flotation gear and navigation lessons before heading offshore? How about taking your first skydiving jump before instruction? I'm sure both could be done, but not prudent.
Passengers on the back, unbalanced rigs, riding on public highways without training and practice, and other risky practices can probably be safely undertaken without mishap by experienced riders who understand the risks. Those that are new enough to not have the knowledge to evaluate the risks, real risks to their familie's lives, and are smart enough to ask for advice need honest answers about the risks involved, and if they find this discouraging they will be safer for it.
Originally written by tkpinsc on 10/22/2006 1:21 PM
I like to think we are here to encourage sidecaring in a safe manner.
I personally would rather see someone give up the idea of a sidecar then encourage them in an unsafe manner. If someone is discouraged from the sport because of the training and equipment needed to practice the sport safely, that is better then risking the lives of their children. This may sound harsh but it is prudent.
Would you advise someone asking questions about their first sailboat, to skip lifeboat, flotation gear and navigation lessons before heading offshore? How about taking your first skydiving jump before instruction? I'm sure both could be done, but not prudent.
Passengers on the back, unbalanced rigs, riding on public highways without training and practice, and other risky practices can probably be safely undertaken without mishap by experienced riders who understand the risks. Those that are new enough to not have the knowledge to evaluate the risks, real risks to their familie's lives, and are smart enough to ask for advice need honest answers about the risks involved, and if they find this discouraging they will be safer for it.
We're not talking about unsafe anything. We're talking about carrying a passenger on a well balanced, properly set up rig.
Your arguements are exactly what I'm talking about. Someone mentions that a dealer suggests that a sidecar would allow you to continue riding after you start a family and immediately some fool starts a knee jerk arguement screaming about sailing without a life vest and discouraging safety lessons.
Why not explain to the prospective rider the proper and safe way to do what his dealer reccommended instead of arbitrarily screaming unsafe and scaring him away? I'm only suggesting that people think before they speak. Maybe then one day we won't have to whine about so few sidecars and the average age of sidecarists being over 60, and "How do we get young people interested?". We get young people interested by not intentionally sending them running away.
im not trying to scare folks off - but...
harley is the ONLY mfg that makes there own sidecars
harley is the ONLY mfg that has to safety certify there sidecar with there bike
harley is the ONLY mfg that does certify braking and handling
harley says that you can haul three as long as the passenger in the car weighs more than the rear passenger and you meet gvwr and gawr
every car mfg says there mounts are "as good as or better than harley"
uh - could it be that making cars continuously since the early teens gives there engineers just a tiny bit of credibility.
if they tell me not to run a heavy passenger on the rear seat, im not going to do it. and if anybody asks me same, im going to tell them not to do it. if they have two kids who are 105 each and the wife is 102 and the rider is 165 - they meet all the gwr and away they go.
Originally written by timo482 on 10/22/2006 4:20 PM
im not trying to scare folks off - but...
harley is the ONLY mfg that makes there own sidecars
harley is the ONLY mfg that has to safety certify there sidecar with there bike
harley is the ONLY mfg that does certify braking and handlingharley says that you can haul three as long as the passenger in the car weighs more than the rear passenger and you meet gvwr and gawr
every car mfg says there mounts are "as good as or better than harley"
uh - could it be that making cars continuously since the early teens gives there engineers just a tiny bit of credibility.
if they tell me not to run a heavy passenger on the rear seat, im not going to do it. and if anybody asks me same, im going to tell them not to do it. if they have two kids who are 105 each and the wife is 102 and the rider is 165 - they meet all the gwr and away they go.
You're making my arguement for me. "harley says that you can haul three as long as the passenger in the car weighs more than the rear passenger and you meet gvwr and gawr" Exactly what Motorvation, Hannigan, Ural, and all the other sidecar manufacturers say and THAT is what I'm suggesting we tell the newbies. Instead all I ever hear is that they will kill their loved ones if they even think of carrying a passenger.
All I'm asking is that people think about what they are telling new riders. Instead of condemning the practice, explain to them how to do it safely.
And what's with this Harley, Harley, Harley? We are talking about sidecar manufacturers. Harley is NOT the only sidecar manufacturer on the planet.
Mike,
I agree totally with you. I had written an article which was either in Hack'd or the sidecarist a while back on carrying a passenegr on the rear seat of a sidecar. In it it explained just what you have said about being balanced properly etc etc. It was also in agreement with what Harley is saying. Yes, it can be done if the rig is set up for it. Yes, it can be done safley. Yes, people have done world tours with two on the bike and a hack full of cargo.
By the same token , yes, a pasenger can fall off the rear of the bike or whatever. But, this can happen on a solo nachine as well. It is not the main argument against having a passenger on the rear at all. People just need to know that one cannot just swap the weight distribution around from seat to seat and expect the rig to handle the same way without adjustments being made.
If we go back and read posts about this the main number one opponent to having a passenegr on the rear will be seen clearly. That is fine and well but people should not base their feelings on one person's opinion or the opinions of a few. Learning about how weigth distribution affects a rig ..a specific rig, is the answer. Some combinations are mroe sensitive than others.
If someone was at the SKUNK rally making a soapbox appearance on a big campaign about the evils of riding a passenegr on the rear of the bike and not telling the whole story...or worse yet not knowing the whole story to tell then shame on them! If they respond by saying that if they sae one life it was worht it then shame on them too. Saving a life is fine but doing so by giving out incomplete, uninformed, narrow minded or maybe one sided inaacurate information is not the same thing. Like you said we need to encourge people that are interested in sidecars and the only way to do that is with truth and not fiction.
I'm on Mike's side. Properly introduced, I can't feel that a rig is any more dangerous that a solo bike, just different set of skills, and a few more considerations. We should be ENCOURAGING more new participants, not scaring them away.
With apoligies to Bob Z.'s pet subject, I often carry me and three. Yes, the Sonnenwind is unique, but really no more so than some of the side-by-side two person cars. I do have seat belts on the car seats, and they are MANDITORY if one wishes to ride with me, but again, I'm in a unique situation with the design of my hack. Yes, I do occasionaly carry a passenger behind me as well, but not without imparting instructions first!
I have never had anyone say that they feel unsafe riding either in the hack or behind me, nor have I ever felt unsafe while being given a ride in my own rig...Heck, I even trusted Gust to chauffer my for a while at last years SKUNK rally.
"Nuff said, just wanted to post my 2 cents worth..,Newfiedad
What is accomplished by recruiting a family to sidecarring if they overload their rig and die in a well publicised crash later?
The "family" sidecar outfit, for all practical purposes, is nearly extinct... unless they're a small and pretty skinny family. BMW gives their bikes a pretty good load capacity, typically about 200 kilograms (440 pounds). My R100GS hooked to a light (90 kilos) sidehack with just my 100 kilos and a few tools on board had already used up almost all of that load capacity. Putting a mere 80 kilo passenger in the sidecar would have used up all the bikes capacity and that little sidecar will only hold one adult. So like many outfits, mine can only handle a family of two adults. For Harley outfits, the limits are even lower- HOG(NYSE) rates their FLHP for 1200 pounds GVW and their sidecar for 300 pounds GVW= 1500 pounds GCW. Given that an FLHP weights in the mid 800 pounds to start with and probably at least 1/4 of the empty hack's weight is carried by the bike, with a 100 kilo rider that FLHP+TLE has maybe 60 pounds of weight capacity left. Throw a 100 kilo passenger in the sidecar and the FLHP is loaded to capacity and the hack is overloaded. Is it no surprise that Harley for years only authorized mounting their hack on the FLHP, which came with a solo seat as standard equipment.
So if the standard american family of XXXL sized momma and pappa and soon to be XXXL sized 2.2 kids asks for your suggestions as to a suitable sidehack combination, you should probably suggest that they get a pair of hacks or consider a convertable.
mike mentioned...
'We're not talking about unsafe anything. We're talking about carrying a passenger on a well balanced, properly set up rig.'
A well balanced, properly set up rig will NOT be well balanced with a passenger on the bike off balance and hanging off the side in a quick emergency swerve...that is the key wording right there. you can ride all day long in a straight line with no problems, until the one time the driver has to make a quick manouver left, or right mainly, with a passenger on the back. if he/she is NOT paying attention ,which will be many times in a day or on a trip, it is very possible to be thrown off balance, hanging off the side, and adding much more weight to the outside of the bike. making it very unstable. any long time SC driver who denies this is just plain ignorent.
there is no safe reason at all to encourage families to put their loved ones on the back seat of a rig. 2 wheels is safer for passengers due to the ability of the bike, rider and passenger, to lean into a turn.
sitting on the back seat is like sitting in a car on the passenger side, with no doors or seatbelts, and go ito a sharp left turn. you be hanging onto the door frame for dear life. but it is safer, as the car wont go off balance from the weight shift.
yes, passengers on the back has been done, many times, but that doesnt mean it is a safe practice. statements like "we've ridden for years that way!" dont mean nothing wont happen tomorrow.
sure, all bike riding is a risk taker, but dont increase the odds.
yes, I tell new wannabe sc riders, about this FACT! Before they buy a rig, and load it up with their wife and kids.I would rather they survive than hear about them later in a news article accident.
yeah, Hannigan , Harley, ETC say its OK...sure...they are selling sidecars! if they had to put it in writing that it is a safe practice, their story would be different.
I have had quite a few new , and vets, agree that this is a very legitimate
argument for safety.
but, there always be those that disagree, so let them. it's their life to live or lose.
the best formula for actually having a passenger on the bike is to put the heavier person in the SC. that leaves the child, or smaller, more vulnerable riders on the rear of the bike.a big no no.
OK, let the fur start flying!
Originally written by tkpinsc on 10/22/2006 2:21 PM
I like to think we are here to encourage sidecaring in a safe manner.
I personally would rather see someone give up the idea of a sidecar then encourage them in an unsafe manner. If someone is discouraged from the sport because of the training and equipment needed to practice the sport safely, that is better then risking the lives of their children. This may sound harsh but it is prudent.
Would you advise someone asking questions about their first sailboat, to skip lifeboat, flotation gear and navigation lessons before heading offshore? How about taking your first skydiving jump before instruction? I'm sure both could be done, but not prudent.
Passengers on the back, unbalanced rigs, riding on public highways without training and practice, and other risky practices can probably be safely undertaken without mishap by experienced riders who understand the risks. Those that are new enough to not have the knowledge to evaluate the risks, real risks to their familie's lives, and are smart enough to ask for advice need honest answers about the risks involved, and if they find this discouraging they will be safer for it.
Rightly said, TK.
"I like to think we are here to encourage sidecaring in a safe manner.
I personally would rather see someone give up the idea of a sidecar then encourage them in an unsafe manner."
I believe that knowledge is important, especially to me, an old geezer at 78. I will not make the mistake of thinking that i know it all, since I am new to sidecar rigs. I have read this entire thread and I am grateful for picking up information about passengers and sidecar rigs. Some very good points.
However, after reading Hal Kendalls information on sidecars and thinking about tipover lines coupled with trail, I will continue to have only a solo seat on my Valk. I'm not smart enough to stay out of trouble in left hand turns.
I had a Harley TLE sidecar on my 1982 FXS Shovelhead (80 cubic inch) for about two years. It was rather limited in speed, perhaps 70-75 max with a light passenger in the sidecar. These bikes had low compression, about 7.4:1 and were not the most powerful, thus the low speed rating.
Later, I had a 1993 FLHS (Evolution) with another TLE sidecar. It would do as much as 80 mph but could also have used more power to suit me.
I would probably not care to have a passenger on the bike when hauling a sidecar unless it was someone very light like a child. It's really not safe. I would probably only do it in an emergency, and then only slowly.
BTW, the sidecar weight that Harley-Davidson used to sell was actually cast-iron. It weighed 46 pounds. I foolishly bought one for the Evo and sidecar combination for $150!. Then I realized that I could manufacture one out of 1/4" plate that looked the same but weighed in at 70 pounds when filled with lead, so I did. Total cost was about $30 that way melting some surplus lead curtain weights that someone gave me years ago.
A weight on the outside of the tub is very helpful in cleaning up your handling a bit. At least I found it to bo so.
Originally written by Bob in Wis on 10/23/2006 12:20 AM
mike mentioned...
'We're not talking about unsafe anything. We're talking about carrying a passenger on a well balanced, properly set up rig.'
A well balanced, properly set up rig will NOT be well balanced with a passenger on the bike off balance and hanging off the side in a quick emergency swerve...that is the key wording right there. you can ride all day long in a straight line with no problems, until the one time the driver has to make a quick manouver left, or right mainly, with a passenger on the back. if he/she is NOT paying attention ,which will be many times in a day or on a trip, it is very possible to be thrown off balance, hanging off the side, and adding much more weight to the outside of the bike. making it very unstable. any long time SC driver who denies this is just plain ignorent.
there is no safe reason at all to encourage families to put their loved ones on the back seat of a rig. 2 wheels is safer for passengers due to the ability of the bike, rider and passenger, to lean into a turn.
sitting on the back seat is like sitting in a car on the passenger side, with no doors or seatbelts, and go ito a sharp left turn. you be hanging onto the door frame for dear life. but it is safer, as the car wont go off balance from the weight shift.
yes, passengers on the back has been done, many times, but that doesnt mean it is a safe practice. statements like "we've ridden for years that way!" dont mean nothing wont happen tomorrow.
sure, all bike riding is a risk taker, but dont increase the odds.
yes, I tell new wannabe sc riders, about this FACT! Before they buy a rig, and load it up with their wife and kids.I would rather they survive than hear about them later in a news article accident.
yeah, Hannigan , Harley, ETC say its OK...sure...they are selling sidecars! if they had to put it in writing that it is a safe practice, their story would be different.
I have had quite a few new , and vets, agree that this is a very legitimate
argument for safety.
but, there always be those that disagree, so let them. it's their life to live or lose.
the best formula for actually having a passenger on the bike is to put the heavier person in the SC. that leaves the child, or smaller, more vulnerable riders on the rear of the bike.a big no no.
OK, let the fur start flying!
Those manufacturers are also the ones who get sued if someone gets hurt.
Here are two of about twenty news reports I found in a five minute search on falling off a street motorcycle. Perhaps we need to start telling people they should not carry passengers Period. Sidecar or not. That arguement would hold a great deal more weight than yours does.
Better yet, We need to start a campaign to get all motorcycles off the street.
Over the last thirty plus years of motorcycling I have lost 40 or 50 friends to motorcycle accidents. I've seen a great number more injured. None of them fell off of the passenger seat of a sidecar rig. In fact, ever since Bob started this crusade I've been searching for evidence of this happening. I can only find two instances of it happening on a highway and in both cases blood alchohol levels of the rider and the passenger were far above legal limits.
**************************************
SAN FRANCISCO - Drunken driving is believed to have played a role in the fatal accident that claimed the life of a San Francisco mother of three and seriously injured a San Francisco man early Sunday, according to officials.
Nektaria Rula Calderon, 39, died after being ejected from the back of a Big Dog motorcycle driven by David Barry, 43, on Interstate Highway 280 near the John Daly Boulevard exit, according to the California Highway Patrol.
Barry suffered a major head injuries and a partially amputated left leg, and was in critical but stable condition at San Francisco General Hospital Sunday afternoon, according to a nursing staffer.
After Calderon fell from the motorcycle, Barry pulled over to the side of the
Originally written by SidecarMike on 10/23/2006 9:37 AM
Those manufacturers are also the ones who get sued if someone gets hurt.
Here are two of about twenty news reports I found in a five minute search on falling off a street motorcycle.
lets get back to the subject of passengers on the bike of sidecar rigs...2 entirely different animals.
those 3 you mentioned that had second thoughts made me very happy, that they realized the dangers before anything happened..if it does..but not happy that they chose NOT to get a SC rig.
I was also at the Skunks rally , and didnt hear of anyone talking to prospective sc riders ,about the dangers of passengers on the bike. I would like to meet him/her?
.
